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SL1 / CW1 Requests Super-Thread  

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Bioluminous
(@bioluminous)
Trusted Member
SL1 / CW1 Requests Super-Thread

This is a long post. There doesn't seem to be anywhere to post suggestions. It is basically my thoughts about the SL1 / CW1 after using them for a couple weeks. I thought it might be cool to have people list some of their ideas about how the SL1 and CW1 can be even better. Maybe someone at Prusa actually reads the forums? Here are some of my ideas:

HARDWARE (SL1):
1. In kit form, some of the connectors on the board are difficult to install like the WiFi antenna and print LCD ribbon cable. It would be nice to have the WiFi antenna pre-connected and somehow make the print LCD connector easier to install since that is something that will need to be replaced after a certain number of hours.
2. Speaking of the WiFi antenna - the reception is very poor. Is the antenna being hidden behind the metal panel? At least with my experience, WiFi functionality is too slow (taking more than 30 minutes to transfer a simple file; unable to download OTA updates without dropping connection).
2. The carbon filter should be accessible from the outside. Having to pull the panels of the printer off to replace it seems overly-complicated. There should also be some form of included part to mate to a hose so you can directly vent the fumes somewhere like through an exterior wall (user prints do exist, but they do not integrate-they replace so lots of disassembly is required).
3. The build plate should have a taller area to grip. It is difficult, especially with gloves, to grip it and the top of the tank lid to install it properly. It's great build quality, just a little unwieldy.
4. The top of the build plate should have something other than a rough finish to make cleaning it easier. That being said, the part where the print adheres is superior to every other brand of resin printer I have used so far. Easy to clean this area, does not scratch easily, never seems to lose the grip battle between FEP film.
5. There should be some included part to hold the build plate for dripping. There are user prints that are available, some work better than others but it would be nice to have something Prusa designed.
6. The print LCD should come unmounted from the metal frame to make the cost lower. I don't understand why this is not the case with replacement LCD screens - we don't need the expensive machined metal frame every time we replace just the screen.
7. The kit should not have the front LCD touch screen adhered to the plastic. This would enable users to print their own parts if they wanted. Same goes for the tilt sensor. Glue is not something I want to see on a Prusa printer.
8. The acrylic lid should not slam shut when accidentally dropped. The hinges seem expensive - perhaps they could be upgraded to something that had a soft-closing functionality built-in?

FIRMWARE (SL1):
1. The vat should lock in the home position after completing the print. It takes extra steps to do this manually after printing and you have to have it at the home position to fill it to the right level.
2. The build plate should not move all the way to the top immediately after printing. By doing so, it makes the dripping print sometimes splash too hard into the vat creating droplets outside of the vat area. If it moved up just enough to clear the print for a while, it would be better. Maybe it could be programmed to only move to the top when the lid is opened.
3. When selecting a print, it would be nice to see a preview like on the Mini.

HARDWARE (CW1):
1. The tank lid should have some sort of locking mechanism to keep cleaner from spilling. (Prusa has now released a print of this and though complicated, it works well.)
2. The build plate connector on the tank lid is difficult to use with gloves. The top part where you insert your fingers is a little too small. And the bottom where you slide on the build plate just does not have enough clearance for your fingers without smashing them into the top of the build plate and getting resin on them. I think this whole part needs to be redesigned.
3. I think that while using the readily-available gastro pan is easy, that designing the whole CW1 around it seems like everything else is suffering. I think, given the price of the CW1, that Prusa should design their own tank. This would solve so many (most) of the design and performance issues. Perhaps Prusa could design a polypropylene tank that would have superior propellor with real bearing, easy-to-use lid with closure, etc.
3. The tank might be better being polypropylene rather than stainless steel as it would make it easier to see the cleaner condition (how much residue is on bottom). But maybe the design needs a metal tank for strength?
4. The propellor is disappointing. It's the only part I have ever seen from Prusa that was glued together like this, and the whole thing balancing on a single ball bearing makes it so there's always an edge scraping the bottom. It would be great to have a nice, stable, quiet propellor like on the Anycubic wash and cure station (an excellent washer, not such a great cure-er.) The propellor on that model has an actual sealed bearing and it keeps it nice and level.
5. The rotating platform should not have curing lights underneath if you are going to use the hexagon pattern on the stainless steel platform part. All of my prints seem to have the hexagon shape burnt into one side because of this. Maybe make the rotating platform out of plexiglas? Prusa typically seems to show prints being cured with supports still in place but in my experience it is better to remove supports before curing as it is easier and seems to show less damage to print surfaces.
6. Again, the acrylic lid should have some sort of a soft close mechanism or at least more of a handle.

FIRMWARE (CW1):
1. The wash function should change direction halfway through the cycle. I think it would be more effective.
2. The LCD screen should have user-adjustable contrast. Mine is very dark and difficult to see the letters from the background.

Posted : 07/07/2020 5:07 pm
Lichtjaeger
(@lichtjaeger)
Noble Member
RE: SL1 / CW1 Requests Super-Thread

You can make suggestions on Github.

Posted : 07/07/2020 7:05 pm
Bioluminous
(@bioluminous)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: SL1 / CW1 Requests Super-Thread

Well after using the SL1 for over a year now, I have better perspectives for people who are questioning why they would purchase this model compared to another brand, often for exponentially less cash. Now that the SL1S has been released, the brand question becomes easier, at least in my eyes.

Many of the issues I had with the SL1 seem to have been corrected with the SL1S. Things like the new angled build plate to help drain the resin from the top (though it looks like it's still textured so maybe the angle won't help much) are at least a step in the right direction. Obviously, the revision of the screen from RGB to mono and the parallel light source are both features that bring this MSLA printer in line with other brands' current offerings. The tilt mechanism, though now apparently faster, still seems like an unnecessary complication. I get the idea, but is it possible the tilt design causes more problems than it solves?

Some notes:

  1. As they are no longer offering a kit form, the issues I had with initial assembly are now moot.
  2. The build plate, though now angled at the top, looks to have even less room to grip. When attaching the plate to the CW1 gastro lid, there is not enough room to keep your fingers from contacting the resin. I understand you need to wear gloves, which I do, but it would be nice to not have to get the gloves messy if it could be avoided.
  3. As mentioned earlier, the build plate still looks like it's textured on top. That texture seems to hold onto the resin more than a smooth surface would.
  4. Did they fix the lid slam issue? The hinges look the same so I don't think so.
  5. On the firmware, the vat still does not lock into the up position after printing. So there's an extra few steps to get it locked so you can properly measure the amount of resin left.
  6. After printing is complete, the build plate immediately moves all the way to the top. Why? It creates unnecessary splashes when the draining parts drip from such a large height.
  7. On the CW1s I sure hope they have a new propellor. The original design is not very good. It is supposed to balance somehow on a single ball bearing but in reality it just scrapes the bottom of the gastro pan loudly.
  8. Speaking of the propellor, will the CW1s firmware reverse the direction midway through the wash?
  9. The CW1 rotating platform still looks like it's metal, though now you have the option of covering it with a piece of FEP to keep it clean. When you cure parts, you will often see the hexagon pattern burnt into the bottom of your part. They should make the rotating platform clear or have some way of curing the parts without having them sit on the metal platform.

 

So this all being said, it is a difficult choice for some people to make. Spend $2k on this or $600 on something that while has similar output capabilities, is made with much lower-quality parts? I also have Epax printers and while they are fine, they all rely on Chitubox software, which I do not like at all. Working with PrusaSlicer has always been such a pleasure and the frequent updates are awesome. So being able to use it with my resin printing is worth the price jump. That along with the much better build quality makes me easily recommend the SL1S to others, despite the cost, and despite my apparently unpopular opinion.

I'll update this again after upgrading my SL1 printers to the newest version using the kits when they ship. I wonder what I can do with the spare LCDs, LEDs, main boards and PSUs? Seems like it would be a cool design contest on PrusaPrinters to re-use these parts somehow.

Posted : 05/07/2021 8:16 pm
gnat
 gnat
(@gnat)
Noble Member
RE: SL1 / CW1 Requests Super-Thread
Posted by: @bioluminous

The build plate, though now angled at the top, looks to have even less room to grip. When attaching the plate to the CW1 gastro lid, there is not enough room to keep your fingers from contacting the resin. I understand you need to wear gloves, which I do, but it would be nice to not have to get the gloves messy if it could be avoided.

Yuck. I hadn't even considered that. I feel the same as you in that I do my best to keep my gloves clean as long as possible (until the second stage of cleaning where I have to remove the parts from the platform and scrub them in water) to reduce cross contamination.

On the firmware, the vat still does not lock into the up position after printing. So there's an extra few steps to get it locked so you can properly measure the amount of resin left.

I always fill my tank when it is angled down and I always just fill to 100% before every print. It hasn't caused me any issues.

After printing is complete, the build plate immediately moves all the way to the top. Why? It creates unnecessary splashes when the draining parts drip from such a large height.

The alternative is that you knock the print on the vat when you take it off (or have extra steps similar to your complaints about the tilting tank). I have never had anything splash out of the tank for me after a print.

What would be a really nice feature (though I don't think it's practical) would be if it could tilt the platform after it was done to assist drainage of uncured resin.

On the CW1s I sure hope they have a new propellor. The original design is not very good. It is supposed to balance somehow on a single ball bearing but in reality it just scrapes the bottom of the gastro pan loudly.

Except as it starts and stops mine doesn't hit the bottom. I believe what you are hearing is simply the ball bearing it is rotating on. The STL of the spinner is on GitHub, made you could print your own and just add a plastic ball there? I don't know how that would wear over time though.

Speaking of the propellor, will the CW1s firmware reverse the direction midway through the wash?

Prusa is studiously ignoring pull requests to the firmware 🤬 

One of which does exactly what you wish.

So this all being said, it is a difficult choice for some people to make. Spend $2k on this or $600 on something that while has similar output capabilities, is made with much lower-quality parts? I also have Epax printers and while they are fine, they all rely on Chitubox software, which I do not like at all. Working with PrusaSlicer has always been such a pleasure and the frequent updates are awesome. So being able to use it with my resin printing is worth the price jump. That along with the much better build quality makes me easily recommend the SL1S to others, despite the cost, and despite my apparently unpopular opinion.

Chitubox is indeed one of the items that pushed me to the Prusa and the recent rumors of Chitu locking their boards to their software is not helping my view of them. 

I have heard rumors that Prusa is adding support for other SLA printers into PrusaSlicer. If true that will change the landscape quite a bit (not in the SL1's favor).

Last week if asked I would wholeheartedly denounce the SL1 as a waste of money for a hobbyist and a terrible investment for a professional (since the support is garbage). In neither case are you getting your money's worth even with the SL1S's improvements (which bring it up to last year's models from other vendors). With this rumored move by Chitu, however, I can't recommend any printer with a Chitu board (which I don't think leaves much if anything) until that all shakes out. That all (currently) makes the SL1S more viable, but Prusa has still got to get off there butt and offer quality and timely support that is effectively demanded by their price point.

MMU tips and troubleshooting
Stop SL1 tank leaks with a simple o-ring...
Posted : 06/07/2021 5:19 pm
Pixel Dust
(@pixel-dust)
Active Member
FEP doesn't like me

I've not had mine nearly so long as you, but there is one area that is really irksome, and that is the method of attaching/replacing the film in the bottom of the resin tank.

To have a successful replacement, you have to tighten many, many of some very small screws, fasteners which seem to be made of some not-so-expensive material, deeply enough into the groove around the bottom of the tank that they don't stand proud of the rim and upset the tank's seating.

Further, the screws are self-tapping into the resin tank material, so there is extra force necessary the first time a film is placed into a tank.  When the fingers/tools slip, they invariably find a way to dent or scratch the film.  However, this sort of accident may not be the first time the film is damaged, because the packaging of these sheets is indifferent to protecting them from incidental damage.  I am particularly annoyed if the replacements have scratches and dents already in place as I peel their "protective" sheeting away.

I'm going to look for some good substitute fasteners, something along the line of hex-head screws, because I think a nut driver will provide a safer grip on these wee bits to enable the high initial pressure of plastic tapping to be achieved with less risk.  In any case, so long as they clear the tank edges and don't protrude, they should be okay.

If that film isn't close to squeaky clean, successful printing becomes very chancy, and print object attachment to the build plate is not a given.  I WANT to hear that tearing sound as the plate rocks the object free from the film; in this case, silence is leaden.

The fact that the FEP film is out-of-stock is telling; I have no replacement at hand, and I am nursing the one or two that I have which are in decent shape until I can finally order some.  Cloudy FEP was one of my first bitter lessons in msla printing.   Anything that makes maintenance/replacement of the film easier and safer is golden in my eyes.

Otherwise, my printer is forcing me to delve deeper and deeper into Blender, and that is a GOOD THING!!  I truly do enjoy this rather expensive hobby.  So much so I am waiting for my MK3S+ MMU2S to arrive even as I write this. Now who makes a nice enclosure kit...??

Posted : 02/10/2021 11:38 pm
gnat
 gnat
(@gnat)
Noble Member
Posted by: @pixel-dust

I've not had mine nearly so long as you, but there is one area that is really irksome, and that is the method of attaching/replacing the film in the bottom of the resin tank.

To have a successful replacement, you have to tighten many, many of some very small screws, fasteners which seem to be made of some not-so-expensive material, deeply enough into the groove around the bottom of the tank that they don't stand proud of the rim and upset the tank's seating.

Further, the screws are self-tapping into the resin tank material, so there is extra force necessary the first time a film is placed into a tank.  When the fingers/tools slip, they invariably find a way to dent or scratch the film.  However, this sort of accident may not be the first time the film is damaged, because the packaging of these sheets is indifferent to protecting them from incidental damage.  I am particularly annoyed if the replacements have scratches and dents already in place as I peel their "protective" sheeting away.

I don't know if the SL1S tank is different, but the SL1 tank uses torx screws which are generally anti slip. I don't use the included driver, however, and instead use a ratcheting driver which further helps with avoiding slips and also tends to make it go faster.

The fact that the FEP film is out-of-stock is telling; I have no replacement at hand, and I am nursing the one or two that I have which are in decent shape until I can finally order some.  

I found the remnants of the holes obnoxious on the SL1 FEPs (I've heard the S doesn't have those?) so I just started buying FEP sheets on Amazon where I can get 5-10 for about the cost that Prusa wants for 3. I find the process of installing them less of a hassle than Prusa's (no protective films to hassle with and no "doughnut holes") to install. What I do:

  1. Lay the film over the bottom of the tank.
  2. Place the retaining plate over the film.
  3. Use something sharp to poke holes for the 4 corners.
  4. Insert the corner screws and tighten them until the plate offers a bit of tension on the film.
  5. Poke holes for and insert the rest of the screws.
  6. Follow Prusa's tightening procedure.
  7. Use a razor to trim away the excess.

I have gotten far fewer print failures since switching to cheaper FEP, but I believe most of my failures with the Prusa FEPs were due to my tank leak and leveling issues. Both of which were fixed at the same time I changed my FEP source.

MMU tips and troubleshooting
Stop SL1 tank leaks with a simple o-ring...
Posted : 03/10/2021 12:24 am
Pixel Dust
(@pixel-dust)
Active Member
Torx alot

You are correct; the SL1S Speed resin tanks use Torx screws, but they are Torx 8, which is rather small considering the force it takes (at least initially) to self-tap the holes in the tank.  I could use a power driver, but still, T8 is rather small when the material that the screws are made-up of seems rather soft.  That's why I am looking for the safest, more secure means of driving the screw.

I think I'll try the Amazon FEP sheets (I didn't know that such existed).

Now, if only I could find some compatible resins...do you know of any alternatives that at least give you a head-start on trying to develop a printer resin profile?

p.s. I just endured my first FEP failure while printing.  Thankfully, it was small and the errant resin didn't spill beyond the horizontal surface of the printer (this time).

Posted : 03/10/2021 2:46 pm
gnat
 gnat
(@gnat)
Noble Member

Posted by: @pixel-dust

You are correct; the SL1S Speed resin tanks use Torx screws, but they are Torx 8, which is rather small considering the force it takes (at least initially) to self-tap the holes in the tank.  I could use a power driver, but still, T8 is rather small when the material that the screws are made-up of seems rather soft.  That's why I am looking for the safest, more secure means of driving the screw.

The holes on a new tank aren't pre-tapped? That seems like asking for trouble...

Maybe pick up a tap and die set next time will make things easier.

I think I'll try the Amazon FEP sheets (I didn't know that such existed).

They are just the generic FEPs that are used for other printers.

Now, if only I could find some compatible resins...do you know of any alternatives that at least give you a head-start on trying to develop a printer resin profile?

I do not since I haven't yet upgraded, sorry. There is a thread about first SL1S prints running around here that explains how to make the resin calibration work on the S even though it's not officially supported yet. You can also look up the timings for other Mono screen printers for your target resin and start there.

MMU tips and troubleshooting
Stop SL1 tank leaks with a simple o-ring...
Posted : 03/10/2021 3:01 pm
Pixel Dust
(@pixel-dust)
Active Member
screwed

The T8s are threaded like sheet metal screws; their screw design is very coarse.  They are not threaded like a machine screw, which uses tapped holes.  I think Prusa designed the tanks out of a material that can be tapped like this.  This would be a cost-savings design, too.

I don't know of a tap that is designed to replicate the self-threading nature of the screw.  I am quite willing to be wrong.

Once a screw is inserted, it can easily (reasonably) be re-inserted.  I may just have to drive the screws into their holes first, remove them, and then apply the sheet so I can re-insert the screw (the second time) with less force.  I may even use an inch-pound torque wrench to insert these tiny screws evenly.  At least then the frame will lie relatively flat.

I've attached a photo of one of the tank screws to show what I mean.

Posted : 03/10/2021 3:29 pm
MikeH
(@mikeh-2)
Trusted Member
McMaster-Carr fasteners?

@PixelDust - would these plastic self-tightening fasteners from McMaster-Carr work?  They might be better quality...

https://www.mcmaster.com/fasteners/system-of-measurement~metric/drive-style~torx/stainless-steel-flat-head-thread-forming-screws-for-plastic/

 

Posted : 03/10/2021 11:53 pm
Pixel Dust
(@pixel-dust)
Active Member
new screw

Wow, that is an excellent suggestion!

They offer lots of variety in head shape and size; I will order a batch of those, probably the smallest head size to go with T8 so I won't have any issue with them standing above the rim of the tank.  They should probably work with a torque wrench, too.

SS will probably be stronger than what Prusa is presently shipping with their tanks.

Posted : 04/10/2021 12:53 am
Area51
(@area51)
Pre-insert tank screws before first use

I pre-inserted the screws using a power screw driver with moment control to ensure they went straight in and was seated.
It was then easier to assemble the tank with FEP film and ensuring that all screws was seated all the way down.

I am absolutely not a fan of self threading screws for reuse - it is way to easy to ruin the thread if not careful...

Have a look at my designs on Thingiverse or on PrusaPrinters ;)...
Posted : 04/10/2021 1:08 am
Pixel Dust
(@pixel-dust)
Active Member
rethreading is risky

Sorry, what is "...moment control..."?  Not being insulting, I just don't understand what you mean by that.

I agree on self-threading screws into plastic: there isn't much of a way to sustain multiple repairs on the resin tank with this cheap way of constructing the connections.

Posted : 04/10/2021 1:36 pm
Area51
(@area51)
.
Posted by: @pixel-dust

Sorry, what is "...moment control..."?  Not being insulting, I just don't understand what you mean by that.

Sorry, I ment torque control (N/m). Nothing wrong in asking 😉

Have a look at my designs on Thingiverse or on PrusaPrinters ;)...
Posted : 04/10/2021 5:07 pm
Pixel Dust
(@pixel-dust)
Active Member
get twisted

Thanks, now I understand why you used the term "moment".

Posted : 05/10/2021 2:37 pm
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