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james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

Here is the final print.  Semi transparent PETG with fan set to 200, hotend 250C, and bed 80C

 

Attachment removed
Posted : 22/06/2019 12:14 am
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

FROG2

Attachment removed
Posted : 22/06/2019 12:27 am
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Evan and James, I think your respective prints confirms the idea that BNBSX delivers too much cooling to the top of the mosquito heat block. That is shrinking the melt zone. With a conductive brass or copper nozzle, the melt zone is extended by the nozzle, but abrasion resistant steel nozzles don't extend the heat zone. They leave the Mosquito dependent on the short melt zone above the nozzle. Extra cooling by the BNBSX makes the zone too small which ruins filament melting DESPITE the main heat block being at target temperature.

The R4 cooling problem ironically helps out the situation, by minimally cooling the top of the Mosquito.

I would bet the Magnum Mosquito is less prone to this issue with its longer melt zone and insulator.

Armed with understanding of how the problem is happening. bunnies are confident good usability of vanadium and nozzle-x on mosquito/ BNBSX is within their grasp.

I am impatiently wating to test the new mosquito helper fins. But that awaits my printer getting freed again. Even if the helper fins don't solve it, there are still more maneuvers that will get us to where we want to be.

Posted : 22/06/2019 12:47 am
Sembazuru
(@sembazuru)
Prominent Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration
Posted by: evan38109

Hey @guy-k2, here's a treefrog printed with your gcode and an E3D Nozzle-X, started just as soon as I got home from the office this evening. It's definitely got a matte charcoal finish compared to the shiny black. Otherwise, the same roll of Prusament PETG:

I just started a print with the same gcode and plated-copper nozzle just in case, though I doubt we'll be overly surprised with the results.

As for your design changes: dang, you work fast! Looks exciting!

Looking carefully at your picture, I notice that the first 3 layers are shiny (and stringier) than the rest of the layers. Did the part cooling fan stay off for the first 3 layers?

See my (limited) designs on:
PrusaPrinters - https://www.prusaprinters.org/social/1448-sembazuru/prints
Thingiverse - https://www.thingiverse.com/Sembazuru/designs...
Posted : 22/06/2019 2:19 am
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

Thank you for your solid hypothesis.  I'm sold....  Looking forward to trying out a Mosquito modified BNBSX.  I'm confident your design will compete with the R4.  Also thank you for sharing the zipped files.  On to the Moons for now.

Posted : 22/06/2019 2:26 am
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Looking carefully at your picture, I notice that the first 3 layers are shiny (and stringier) than the rest of the layers. Did the part cooling fan stay off for the first 3 layers?

I noticed that as well and also thought it was the part cooling fan. It happens nearly at the same time as the part cooling fan coming on. Eureka! Nope. That same bottom few layers being properly melted vs higher up not melting still happened with part cooling fan disabled for all layers. It was mere coincidence that it was basically at same level that fan comes on.
 
I think the bottom three layers are well melted because they get the help of bed heat. Marginally melted PETG is okay until print gets high enough for the thermal "boost" of the heated bed no longer is sufficient.
 
 
Posted : 22/06/2019 2:42 am
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I went ahead and plated new versions of hot fins and helper planes in the Mosquito kit. Obviously the help planes will need to be printed with a high temp material like polycarbonate. There is a chance that PC might still be too hot. I kept the help planes thin so the noctua airflow can help cool them. If they melt, then Chocki's mica has a new home.

 

With a Mosquito Magnum, one would use the larger holed E3d hot fins and rely on the Slice insulator to protect the melt zone

This post was modified 3 years ago by Bunny Science
Posted : 22/06/2019 8:38 am
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

Yes, the venturi proximity to the heat block looks super close.  Looking at Slice Engineering's adaptor it appears to have more clearance.  https://www.sliceengineering.com/shop/mosquito-magnum-hotend

This post was modified 3 years ago by james.hess
Posted : 22/06/2019 12:01 pm
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Question, is there room in the BNBSX to install a 25mm (2510)?  https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Sunon/MC25150V1-000U-A99?qs=EU6FO9ffTwelvzlN46v%2Fow%3D%3D

Posted : 22/06/2019 12:25 pm
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

For a 25mm fan pretty sure this would be drop in compatable:.  https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Sunon/MF25100V1-1000U-G99?qs=%2Fha2pyFaduge9Ul%2FcmRxeqCGzwipzN8GUaaNGu9Kn2SfAeFx2gFjun%252BJ3gUiFneA

Posted : 22/06/2019 1:07 pm
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I agree, that does look like a drop in compatible one. 5 volt, 3 wire. Have to verify whether its RPM will be accepted without a firmware patch. I know there is a upper accepted limit but cannot recall it at this moment.

25 x 10 mm doesn't fit, but would be an easy change.

I agree that they have the bottom of the air plenum about 1.2 mm higher in the Slice R4. Again, that would be doable. That's the advantage of separate hot fins. I can change the hot fins and update the airflow at the bottom without requiring users reprint everything above that level.

Posted : 22/06/2019 1:30 pm
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

Just received feedback from Prusa engineering.  They are claiming it's drop in compatable as well.  Hear you on the rpm.  Looks like the cfm rating is very close to Slice Engineering's spec fan.  Now just need to get those guys to stock this thing.  They should already be stocking it....  Will start tinkering with your  BNBSX in the coming weeks.  Have a few other niggles bugging me.  Received the 1.8 Moons for the Extruder, want to get that temp down. 

Thanks again,

James

This post was modified 3 years ago by james.hess
Posted : 22/06/2019 1:41 pm
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Time willing, we will have the plenum adjusted to fit 25x10 fan and raise the lower portion up a bit. Tricky part will be doing that AND retaining ability to mount helper panes if they prove still needed.

 

Posted : 22/06/2019 2:33 pm
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

Must admit it would be great to see a version of the BNBSX allowing for native fitment of the Mosquito with the 2510 fan.  I'll keep an eye open here?  https://www.thingiverse.com/BunnyScience/about

Thanks again for helping me to fully understand the thermal properties and configuration requirements for the Mosquito.

Posted : 22/06/2019 9:21 pm
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I got the extra tight hot fins and helper planes printed in PETG and successfully installed.

Vanadium nozzle (without boron nitride) gives still flat looking surface finish, but definitely much better layer fusion.

Testing now with boron nitride, but I will be surprised if it gets to be as good as the brass nozzle fusion results.

has an interesting fix for increasing the working melt zone with steel nozzles. While I don't think that would be our answer, I think the Magnum edition of the mosquito may give the equivalent needed melting capability. 

Also did a trial with reduced noctua flow. Don't do it! Melt zone creeps and you start getting Bondtech clicking. 

On the plus side, I did experience an improvement with the super tight airflow. Also a couple other things were good.

1. I could swap out hot fins without taking extruder off printer, removing noctua fan, nor remove PINDA. That was a nice demo of BNBSX servicability.

2. The help fins printed out and fit perfectly

3. One handed nozzle changes have a side effect of not needing print nozzle nor silicon sock removal for nozzle changes.

We've dropped cooling airflow across the Mosquito about maximally with the latest hot fin changes. I can't really do much to reduce hot end fan (noctua) airflow exposure because, well it's pretty much all covered up and isolated - even more than a Slice R4

I don't understand how one gets glassy PETG prints at 240/245C with a vanadium nozzle. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was done by someone earlier in this thread. 

Next trial after the boron nitride 240/245 C run will be at 250/255C. That will test one traditional way of dealing with a steel nozzle - increasing temperature & dropping print speed.

 

Posted : 23/06/2019 2:07 am
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Bunnies will still get the air plenum ready for a 2510 sized fan and shift the bottom clearances, but I suspect the Magnum style heat break with larger melt zone will be needed to get vanadium nozzle working at good performance.

Brass nozzle we have working just fine, but a hardened nozzle is part of the desired high temp, abrasive filament capability this Mosquito is touted as easily in its range.

I just ordered a magnum style heat break and insulator. I thought we were getting more heating capacity and hotter print capability going to a Mosquito. This is thus far the opposite of desired result.

This post was modified 3 years ago by Bunny Science
Posted : 23/06/2019 2:30 am
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Holmes, your PETG tree frog was with the VANADIUM nozzle right?

Posted : 23/06/2019 2:34 am
james.hess
(@james-hess)
Trusted Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

Just received some black generic petg. Using your slice @250C, 80C bed, 200 for cooling and Vanadium nozzle.  I'll start the print this evening.

Posted : 23/06/2019 3:19 am
jmone
(@jmone)
Reputable Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I got all the bits arriving at the end of next week to build a Std and/or Magnum + my Tungsten Nozzle.  I have to say my current setup is printing very very well, so I'm now a bit perplexed if I should swap to the Mosquitio ( 🙂 just kidding, have to try it out) and if I should go Magnum or Std up front.  What do you recommend? 

Also I'd like to avoid any issues from compiling the FW, would it be possible to share a know good pre-built one for the Mosquito?

Thanks

Nathan 

Posted : 23/06/2019 6:48 am
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

OK. Some progresss. I finally got a well fused PETG frog out of the vanadium nozzle. 

This was with the BNBSX and Mosquito kit B03M4 hot fins with helper planes. Required nozzle way up at 255/260C and print fan dialed up about 20% to maintain geometry. Most of surface is black rather than charcoal. It's not as good as I routinely can do with brass, but it is progress. No posting an image because the big test will be with the B03M5 fins that are being printed now.

B03M5 implements

  • lifted floor of air plenum
  • more clearance above and around heat block
  • dentated fitment around the stainless steel tubes and bolts to help seal off stray airflow
  • space for magnum style parts
  • clearance for Sunon 2015 fan.

No helper planes are in B03M5 because the plenum is now about 0.5 mm higher than even the Slice R4 extruder. If that works for Slice, it should also work in the BNBSX. Higher floor of plenum should deflect most air flow away from melt zone without needing the helper planes. 

Fingers crossed. I hope to test tomorrow and if it performs adequately, will release the files as the preferred plated version.

Meanwhile I will upload the B03M5 hot fin STL's without plating in case Evan wants an early go at them.

Posted : 23/06/2019 9:31 am
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