1st layer texture - Surprising results printing on textured vinyl  

  RSS
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Famed Member

I saw a reddit post showing results printing with carbon fibre-textured vinyl as a bed surface. A quick google search showed that vinyl was actually used by some folks a few years ago, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I ordered a flex-steel sheet and a couple of textured vinyl car wrap samples. The results were surprisingly good. Here's an adhesion test with PLA:

The print stuck well, yet popped off cleanly once cooled. Here's a peek at the underside:

This honeycombed surface is an interesting alternative to the normal glossy PEI surface result.

I'm really intrigued by the results. These were a rush job, and I didn't do the best job laying down the vinyl, and I'm interested to see how well the adhesion holds out, as well as overall durability. The vinyl doesn't smell at all, but I also want to find out more about any issues using it on a heated bed before printing with it extensively indoors.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 02/03/2019 8:21 am
M_Key liked
toaf
 toaf
(@toaf)
Noble Member

but if you print on a vinyl record, will it copy it? 🙂

I have a Prusa,therefore I research....
Posted : 02/03/2019 8:23 am
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Famed Member


but if you print on a vinyl record, will it copy it? 🙂
Yeah, but Sony's lawyers would show up.

Here's another test with a pebbled surface texture from another vinyl manufacturer. Again, good adhesion:

And a very clean 1st layer result:

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 02/03/2019 8:36 am
RHDreambox
(@rhdreambox)
Honorable Member

Very interesting!
Is this vinyl self-adhesive or have you glued it to the steel plate?

Happy owner of a Prusa MK3...
Posted : 02/03/2019 9:17 am
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Famed Member


[...] Is this vinyl self-adhesive or have you glued it to the steel plate?

It's the self-adhesive car wrap stuff.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 02/03/2019 3:37 pm
randolph.l
(@randolph-l)
Honorable Member

There is a post on the prusa facebook page from someone using a carbon fiber weave texture vinyl wrap to have that look on the bottom of his prints . I am amazed that they stand up to the heat but a bit of thought and the inside dash of a black car on a hot summer day can get well over 100c and the wrp materials need to tolerate that

Posted : 02/03/2019 5:47 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Famed Member


There is a post on the prusa facebook page from someone using a carbon fiber weave texture vinyl wrap to have that look on the bottom of his prints .
That may be the same person that posted to reddit. I'm not a fan of the CF weave patterns, but they offer textured vinyl in a variety of textures. I've got pebbled and the hex pattern mounted, and brushed aluminum is next. There's also a concrete surface texture that looks very interesting, but I can only find expensive rolls of the stuff.

I am amazed that they stand up to the heat but a bit of thought and the inside dash of a black car on a hot summer day can get well over 100c and the wrp materials need to tolerate thatThat's my thinking as well. I'm using them for PLA at around 60C. No bad smells, but I'd like to find something definitive that indicates they're not toxic indoors.

Here's another quick surface test using larger surfaces. I'm still working on the Live-Z calibration, as it seems more touchy with these patterns. Unfortunately, I wasn't very skilled at applying the textured surface, so you can see a few bubbles and some lint that accumulated.

The big pleasant surprise for me so far has been how good adhesion is. The stuff seems to grip when heated, yet parts pop off easily afterwards. I'm going to do a sequence of prints in the same spot to see how well it holds up, but for now, if I need a unique texture, there's an option available.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 02/03/2019 6:49 pm
GroundedAstronaut
(@groundedastronaut)
Trusted Member

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Please keep us posted.

...
Posted : 02/03/2019 7:20 pm
Tim
(@tim-m30)
Illustrious Member

Interesting. So you are heating it to 60c? Have you IR'd the surface to see what it really is sitting at?

As for VOC's - I doubt anyone in the aftermarket industry worries about it nor has any data. In a car the temps can approach 150f, or 65c, I'd guess the glues are probably good for extended use at 60c. You could try using a particle meter near the plate as it heats, watch for any increase in PM2.5 (PM1 if you have it). Also, some of the cheapo meters have an organic sensor ...

Now I know what to do with my 'used' PEI sheets. Can you link to the sand blast texture you purchased?

All I could find on 3M's film product.

It is always wise to get more than one opinion......
Posted : 02/03/2019 7:21 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Famed Member


Interesting. So you are heating it to 60c? Have you IR'd the surface to see what it really is sitting at?
Not yet. I'm sure it's a bit cooler due to having put another material on the flip side. Results have been very good, and I'm happy to keep temps down if possible. I'm going to try going lower to test the limits. So far, with a few prints on each side, adhesion remains good.

As for VOC's - I doubt anyone in the aftermarket industry worries about it nor has any data. In a car the temps can approach 150f, or 65c, I'd guess the glues are probably good for extended use at 60c. You could try using a particle meter near the plate as it heats, watch for any increase in PM2.5 (PM1 if you have it). Also, some of the cheapo meters have an organic sensor ...I don't want to spend too much, but I would like to pick up such a meter eventually. Can you recommend any?

Edit: Found this one. Any idea if that is worthwhile?

Now I know what to do with my 'used' PEI sheets. Can you link to the sand blast texture you purchased?
The best deal seems to be sample sizes. Here are the ones I've got so far:

  • Pebble texture off amazon. Bummer about the shipping, but still cheaper than a full roll.

  • 3M 1080 12x12" samples from metrorestyling for the others.
  • I've got the honeycomb and brush aluminum textures so far. Will try to mount and test the aluminum soon. Things I want to try:

  • Will gloss give that "printed-on-glass" even sheen while still providing good adhesion?

  • What difference do matte and satin finishes have? A good consistent matte finish would be nice.

  • Is PETG going to just make a mess?

  • What is the upper end on bed temps?
  • Lesson learned: Pick a color that you don't print in often. Calibrating Live-Z with a bed the same color as your filament is tough.

    My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
    He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
    Posted : 02/03/2019 8:43 pm
    Sembazuru
    (@sembazuru)
    Honorable Member

    I wonder if car shops that do this might be a source of these types of vinyl sheet in small sizes. I'm sure they have off-cuts. But you might be limited in variety based on what they have recently used.

    If you live near a shop that does this it might be worth it to stop by in person and ask.

    Posted : 02/03/2019 11:30 pm
    bobstro
    (@bobstro)
    Famed Member


    I wonder if car shops that do this might be a source of these types of vinyl sheet in small sizes. I'm sure they have off-cuts. But you might be limited in variety based on what they have recently used.
    I used samples of the vinyl used for cars in 12x12in sample sizes. Found them for $3 apiece with fast shipping. No car shops nearby where I live, but it would be nice to be able to see what's available in textures.

    My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
    He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
    Posted : 04/03/2019 6:43 am
    bobstro
    (@bobstro)
    Famed Member

    A quick follow up with more results. Unfortunately, I mis-judged the 1st layer for some of the prints, so there's a bit of under-extrusion causing the printer lines to overwhelm the textures a bit.

    My poor "lab rat" Prusa smooth PEI surface:

    Fake BuildTak surface for comparison:

    Pebble-textured vinyl in black:

    And silver-gray:

    "Matrix" textured vinyl:

    Brushed aluminum textured vinyl:

    General summary based on experience so far:

  • The heated bed works well up to about 65C, but forget normal PETG bed temps.

  • The vinyl is very fragile, particularly the 3M stuff. Makes sense, quality wrap is thinner.

  • Definitely let it cool to room temp before removal.

  • The vinyl applications are definitely consumables. They're good for a dozen prints or so. The good news is it's easy to replace, and peels off the steel flex sheet cleanly.

  • A bit of MagiGoo (for finish) or glue stick can help with adhesion.

  • Textured vinyl is a really easy to use surface for PLA printing. No washing or prep between prints. Fingerprints don't deter it. The grip is really nice.
  • After trashing a couple of my vinyl samples, I'm going to stick with cold bed printing techniques. I think PETG may be possible with a warm (55-65C) bed and some MagiGoo, but I won't be able to try this for a few days.

    Quick shot of the film removal process:

    The generic stuff comes off very easily. The thinner 3M film requires a bit of heat to coax it off, but does come off cleanly. No limonene, no acetone to deal with!

    My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
    He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
    Posted : 11/03/2019 4:36 pm
    bobstro
    (@bobstro)
    Famed Member

    In our relentless pursuit of solutions to the problems nobody has, Muppet Labs has been working on getting PETG and nGen to print on the textured vinyl. I've had some luck with my "coldbrew" configuration using a 40C bed with a good slather of glue stick (MagiGoo sadly requires more heat) using Colorfabb nGen.

    So far, PETG seems to print just a bit too hot (230 v 220C) to get it to release without destroying the vinyl.

    My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
    He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
    Posted : 12/03/2019 4:39 pm
    toaf
     toaf
    (@toaf)
    Noble Member

    "In our relentless pursuit of solutions to the problems nobody has"
    isn't that what professor honeydew did?

    science is fun 🙂

    I have a Prusa,therefore I research....
    Posted : 12/03/2019 6:14 pm
    vintagepc
    (@vintagepc)
    Noble Member


    "In our relentless pursuit of solutions to the problems nobody has"

    Most science in a nutshell... I recall reading about someone that did a study on the palatability of tadpoles. Because we clearly need to commit more frog infanticide in the quest to put food on the table... 😆

    Posted : 12/03/2019 6:18 pm
    Share:

    Please Login or Register