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Brigandier
(@brigandier)
Reputable Member
PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

Hi Prusa guys,

Got my MK3 a couple weeks ago and loving it, but I am having some first layer issues with PETG. From what I read, many people caution using PETG with PEI because the stick is too good, but I can't get it to stick at all. It seems like no matter what I try, the PETG wants to goop up onto the nozzle even after being down on the bed (especially when turning corners or small detailed areas, it pulls back up from the bed as much as a quarter inch away from the nozzle). Here's a few things I have tried:

  • So far I have tried Inland Black (opaque) and Inland Trans Blue PETG, also a friend loaned me some supposedly really nice Atomic Filament Trans Blue PETG, same results with both but a bit less so with Atomic,

  • I have my Z-offset perfect with PLA. I have tried that offset with PETG and I have tried taking Z very far upwards so it lays down rather than smashing it into the bed, both without luck. The higher Z-offset actually made the problem worse, to the point it's just dragging around a line of filament at times (especially turning corners).

  • As far as general print settings go, I am using the latest Prusa Slic3r MK3 presets for "Generic PET". The only settings I have changed have been temps up/down trying to fix this issue. (240-255 range on nozzle, 90~ on bed). Kind of afraid to go much further in hopes of making it stick without some advice.

  • I have cleaned the PEI with acetone before printing without much luck.
  • At this point I feel like I am probably missing something really simple, especially so reading everyone saying "it's just as easy to print as PLA!" - Anyone mind sharing some PETG tips you have found particular to the MK3?

    Thanks!

    My MK3 Parts: [Bowden] [New Shoes] [TPU Micro Springs]

    Posted : 10/01/2018 1:53 am
    keith.m10
    (@keith-m10)
    Eminent Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    Have you tried a really strong IPA(90% or higher) to try to get some of the PLA that must be on the bed off the plastic. PLA does not react to Acetone.

    Posted : 10/01/2018 2:07 am
    Brigandier
    (@brigandier)
    Reputable Member
    Topic starter answered:
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...


    Have you tried a really strong IPA(90% or higher) to try to get some of the PLA that must be on the bed off the plastic. PLA does not react to Acetone.

    I can get my hands on some and give that a shot, but from what I am reading online it seems PLA doesn't react to alcohol?

    My MK3 Parts: [Bowden] [New Shoes] [TPU Micro Springs]

    Posted : 10/01/2018 2:28 am
    dryja123
    (@dryja123)
    Honorable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    PEI does not like fats and oils which is why it needs to be cleaned with 90+ proof isopropyl alcohol.

    Posted : 10/01/2018 2:59 am
    surfgeorge
    (@surfgeorge)
    Estimable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    It's surprising to hear about your issues of getting PETG to stick to the print surface.
    I have printed almost 1kg of filament and it's been working flawlessly.
    Due to the online information that PETG is prone to stick to the bed so much that it can be hard to remove I have not used IPA to clean the bed, I just wiped off the dust with my bare hands, intentionally getting some oil onto the bed.

    I even printed a U-profile, standing on the U-end, where I was pretty concerned about it coming off, and it stuck.
    It's the part in the center-right of the photo.

    What seemed to be very important is the temperature, at the 85 to 90°C bed temperature during printing, the PETG sticks very well, when the print is finished letting it cool off makes the prints pop off pretty easily.

    Check the first layer height and temeprature, if those are right PETG should stick just perfectly!
    It's a nice material to print with (I used Hobbyking PETG, but have 2 more rolls of Prusa PETG ready)

    BTW, the print quality on these prints was OK, but I printed more of those parts after the latest Slic3r update and the new prints came out much cleaner, with less stringing and smoother surfaces.

    Good luck!

    Posted : 10/01/2018 7:11 am
    themzlab
    (@themzlab)
    Estimable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...


    Hi Prusa guys,

    .....
    [*]I have my Z-offset perfect with PLA. I have tried that offset with PETG and I have tried taking Z very far upwards so it lays down rather than smashing it into the bed, both without luck. The higher Z-offset actually made the problem worse, to the point it's just dragging around a line of filament at times (especially turning corners).
    ....
    Thanks!

    what you might be missing is that your Z needs to be a lot lower. The Z should never be dropping the filament down so that gravity brings it to the sheet. It's only too low when it starts to squish and drag out the sides. I suggest opening the printer guide going through the Z calibration again doing the first layer adjust with the "Live Z". My Z offset after calibration was -0.67 but there can be a wide range due to the rough nature of installing the Pinda sensor.

    I have not printed PETG yet but the instructions state a couple of different ways to keep the PETG from sticking too much. You may wish to print one model with PLA first after getting the Z adjusted properly (low) and then use either the glue stick or Window cleaner as a transfer adhesive for the PETG because you really don't want to end up with a damaged PEI sheet.

    Posted : 10/01/2018 1:24 pm
    Brigandier
    (@brigandier)
    Reputable Member
    Topic starter answered:
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...



    Hi Prusa guys,

    .....
    [*]I have my Z-offset perfect with PLA. I have tried that offset with PETG and I have tried taking Z very far upwards so it lays down rather than smashing it into the bed, both without luck. The higher Z-offset actually made the problem worse, to the point it's just dragging around a line of filament at times (especially turning corners).
    ....
    Thanks!

    what you might be missing is that your Z needs to be a lot lower. The Z should never be dropping the filament down so that gravity brings it to the sheet. It's only too low when it starts to squish and drag out the sides. I suggest opening the printer guide going through the Z calibration again doing the first layer adjust with the "Live Z". My Z offset after calibration was -0.67 but there can be a wide range due to the rough nature of installing the Pinda sensor.

    I have not printed PETG yet but the instructions state a couple of different ways to keep the PETG from sticking too much. You may wish to print one model with PLA first after getting the Z adjusted properly (low) and then use either the glue stick or Window cleaner as a transfer adhesive for the PETG because you really don't want to end up with a damaged PEI sheet.

    It's surprising to hear about your issues of getting PETG to stick to the print surface.
    I have printed almost 1kg of filament and it's been working flawlessly.
    Due to the online information that PETG is prone to stick to the bed so much that it can be hard to remove I have not used IPA to clean the bed, I just wiped off the dust with my bare hands, intentionally getting some oil onto the bed.

    I even printed a U-profile, standing on the U-end, where I was pretty concerned about it coming off, and it stuck.
    It's the part in the center-right of the photo.

    What seemed to be very important is the temperature, at the 85 to 90°C bed temperature during printing, the PETG sticks very well, when the print is finished letting it cool off makes the prints pop off pretty easily.

    Check the first layer height and temeprature, if those are right PETG should stick just perfectly!
    It's a nice material to print with (I used Hobbyking PETG, but have 2 more rolls of Prusa PETG ready)

    BTW, the print quality on these prints was OK, but I printed more of those parts after the latest Slic3r update and the new prints came out much cleaner, with less stringing and smoother surfaces.

    Good luck!

    Thanks for the info from both of you. I have PLA printing great and consistently, with my first layer looking great. Out of curiosity, are you using the same Z-offset you are using on PLA? If not, can you advise how much you are adjusting when swapping between the two? I know the installation differences of the Pinda mean you can't provide me with exact numbers to punch in, but it would be interesting to know how much you are raising Z relative to your PLA height. I.e., .1mm higher, .2mm higher, etc?

    My MK3 Parts: [Bowden] [New Shoes] [TPU Micro Springs]

    Posted : 10/01/2018 2:21 pm
    RH_Dreambox
    (@rh_dreambox)
    Prominent Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    Normally, you don't need to change Z between materials.
    But the first layer thickness is important. Look here:

    Bear MK3 with Bondtech extruder

    Posted : 10/01/2018 2:34 pm
    bo.j
     bo.j
    (@bo-j)
    Active Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    If you follow the steps I have outlines below, and as already explained by others in this thread, you should have no problems printing with PETG.

  • Clean the print bed. Touching the surface slightly with your hands, can deposit enough oil to make PET adhesion difficult. Keeping the print bed clean is in my experience, the most important thing to do.

  • Adjust the Z leveling properly. PET can be very fuzzy about this setting compared to other materials. . As I use PETG a lot, I only use PETG when fine tuning this value.

  • Keep the print bed hot. I prefer 87-90C.

  • Place small objects off center on the print bed. Maybe it's just my printer, but I have noticed that airflow around the print head influences the print bed temperature when printing small centered objects directly on top of the temp sensor. This also distributes surface wear.
  • PETG adhesion to the print bed can be very strong, but that's when temperatures are high. Wait for the print bed to cool dow to around 70C, and you should have no problem removing parts.

    Posted : 10/01/2018 3:20 pm
    MikiCab
    (@mikicab)
    Reputable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    I was able to print PETG without any problem until the FW/SW update and now my prints lift off. I suspect I set my Z height two high. I am going to re-calibrate once I get a chance again. What I did for quick fix was to put down painters tape with glue stick and was a quick and dirty way of getting my print to stick. I was running out the down and wanted to get this print started before I went to work and it worked great.
    But like I said I was printing before without tape and I think when I uploaded the new FW/SW I went through all the cals again and probably set Z too high. PLA prints no problem but PETG does not stick. Photo of PETG from MakerGeeks printed on Painters tape and glue stick.

    Posted : 10/01/2018 9:27 pm
    Brigandier
    (@brigandier)
    Reputable Member
    Topic starter answered:
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    Well, after a bit more work I finally have this figured out. Here's what I did:

  • Sticking to nozzle fix: Using PLA (since it wasn't sticking to the nozzle), I did several first layer calibrations beyond the included zig-zag line. The zig-zag is nice, but I wanted something with perimeters to fill so I stuck with a small cube. At my original offset I could barely feel some roughness I suspected was from filament being mashed a little harder than required. To fix this I raised Z until it was perfectly smooth to the touch, almost as glassy as the bottom of the print. I was very close originally, going from .965mm offset to .950. With this offset, PETG no longer builds on the nozzle and it stays completely clean throughout the print. Lesson learned: PETG is extremely sensitive to Z offset. Very small adjustments can make a huge difference. .015 was the difference between a goopy mess and a glass like first layer.

  • Sticking to bed fix: This mostly cleared up when I fixed the Z offset above, except on small details and sharp turns I was still getting a little corner lift. At this point, slowing first layer down by 75% completely eliminated this issue. I may be able to go a bit faster than that, didn't try, but it's not a huge time increase for making sure. It almost seems like PETG has a speed it wants to flow at and moving any faster than that makes it want to yank and come along. Lesson learned: Be patient, I think? Unless someone has a way to do this faster? I assumed the Prusa built in settings would have first layer speed set at an appropriate speed, so maybe I am still having a little problem.
  • That said, victory shots with a 200% blue PETG Benchy @ .2mm!

    My MK3 Parts: [Bowden] [New Shoes] [TPU Micro Springs]

    Posted : 11/01/2018 2:48 am
    Aravon
    (@aravon)
    Estimable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    Congratulation!

    Just want to share my experience with the build-in First layer calibration.
    IMHO, firstly it is too fast, no enough time to do fine adjustment. Secondly, it forces you to calibrate with PLA.
    Theoretically, it should work for other materials but an option to choose other temperature settings do no harm and might be useful in particular cases, like yours.

    Posted : 11/01/2018 9:39 am
    Brigandier
    (@brigandier)
    Reputable Member
    Topic starter answered:
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...


    Congratulation!

    Just want to share my experience with the build-in First layer calibration.
    IMHO, firstly it is too fast, no enough time to do fine adjustment. Secondly, it forces you to calibrate with PLA.
    Theoretically, it should work for other materials but an option to choose other temperature settings do no harm and might be useful in particular cases, like yours.

    Yes, an option for other filament types would be awesome. Would also like to see the little square at the end get some perimeters. I might have been able to spot the .015 squish too much that I had if the perimeters were there.

    My MK3 Parts: [Bowden] [New Shoes] [TPU Micro Springs]

    Posted : 11/01/2018 2:31 pm
    sworcester
    (@sworcester)
    Eminent Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...


    I was able to print PETG without any problem until the FW/SW update and now my prints lift off. I suspect I set my Z height two high. I am going to re-calibrate once I get a chance again. What I did for quick fix was to put down painters tape with glue stick and was a quick and dirty way of getting my print to stick. I was running out the down and wanted to get this print started before I went to work and it worked great.
    But like I said I was printing before without tape and I think when I uploaded the new FW/SW I went through all the cals again and probably set Z too high. PLA prints no problem but PETG does not stick. Photo of PETG from MakerGeeks printed on Painters tape and glue stick.

    First, as a woodturner, that vessel model is awesome.

    I have a problem with lifting on corners and ends, regardless of filaments. The prints are about a few hours each, but only 50x150mm rectangle with 90° corners. Tried pei, buildtak, same issue it seems. New , clean, old, dirty, same issue. First layers look awesome, but there is what seems to be some warping in future layers as it is just those 90° corners. Some lift further than others. I use the default profiles in Slic3r as I don't know enough to change them. What I am printing requires an absolutely flat bottom.
    Did you eliminate it with blue tape and glue on Petg?

    Posted : 12/01/2018 1:01 am
    Rotem
    (@rotem)
    New Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    Hello,

    I have the same problem now...

    I was able to print PETG with no problem at all (even the PETG sticks to much), but now I'm facing the same problems, PETG sticking to the nozzle but not sticking to the bad.

    cleaning with alcohol & windows cleaner.

    I've used the same gcode file that success to print the same model that now fail...

    Don't know what to do next.

    Rotem

    Posted : 01/03/2018 10:25 am
    Mike
     Mike
    (@mike-8)
    Estimable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...


    Hello,

    I have the same problem now...

    I was able to print PETG with no problem at all (even the PETG sticks to much), but now I'm facing the same problems, PETG sticking to the nozzle but not sticking to the bad.

    cleaning with alcohol & windows cleaner.

    I've used the same gcode file that success to print the same model that now fail...

    Don't know what to do next.

    Rotem

    use a brim 😉

    Posted : 01/03/2018 10:30 am
    ed
     ed
    (@ed-3)
    Reputable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    I'm starting to fight corner lift on PETG as well. At first everything stuck like crazy now it's not sticking so well on long prints, short appear to fine though. I took acetone to the sheet last weekend and that helped a little, then I switched from glue stick to Windex for PETG and that improved it a bit more but I still get corner lift to some degree on all longer prints. I've only ever printed on one side of my sheet but don't want to move to the other side until I know I can secure a replacement sheet, be it PEI, Powder Coated or some other 3rd party offering...

    Posted : 01/03/2018 3:57 pm
    christopher.d3
    (@christopher-d3)
    Estimable Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    What is this model? It looks like a leaky teapot with a tree growing out of the spout. Thanks.

    Posted : 24/03/2018 1:09 am
    gregnier
    (@gregnier)
    Eminent Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    Have you tried cleaning with Isopropyl Alcohol? Additionally, reduce Z slightly. I had the same problem with the Z setting at -0.640 mm. I gradually decreased the setting to -0.800 mm before it would begin sticking. My best range for Z is somewhere between 0.880 and 0.890 mm. My test subject was 3D Benchy. The final dimensions for the printed Benchy were remarkably precise according to the specification. My setting was -0.880 mm.

    Posted : 24/03/2018 1:48 am
    Jeroen
    (@jeroen)
    Eminent Member
    Re: PETG not sticking to PEI sheet...

    I switch a lot between PLA and PETG. PETG always sticks best on my setup when I clean the PEI sheet with acetone. For cleaning before printing PLA is use the 70% isopropyl alcohol. I print all PETG layers at 79% speed maximum. The difference in layer heigth for me is (-)0,687 PETG vs (-)0,627 PLA.

    Posted : 24/03/2018 1:35 pm
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