Lithophanes on MK3S+ on the Textured PEI Powder Coated Sheet
 

Lithophanes on MK3S+ on the Textured PEI Powder Coated Sheet  

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Bill2020
(@bill2020)
Active Member

New to the MK3S+, have been printing Lithophanes for years on glass on my i3 clone. Now, I can't print them to stick to the print surface to completion. I am cleaning the bed with Dawn, and air drying. Also use 99% IPA in between. I have tried printing at 215/60 (basically PS defaults) 40mm/s, 50% for first layers. Also tried 225/65 same speeds. 5mm Brim. Using both Prusament PLA and Ziro PLA. Same results, the lithophane falls off the bed at some point during the print. Lots to love about this printer, but really need to be able to print lithos.  

Thanks in advanced. 

Posted : 09/12/2020 6:32 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member

I've only done a few lithophanes, but for those I did I never considered anything other than a smooth sheet.

At least for those lithophanes I've done, and seen done at our local 'makerspace', the viewing side is the side with the detail, as in the top of the print, and the bottom, which lies upon the build plate, will not be directly seen.

I would think (I have not seen nor tried it) that if you use the textured sheet, it would introduce 'noise' or 'grain' into the photo.  (Maybe that's what you want.)  The rough surface it leaves will show up as minor variations in the transparency (translucency) of the print.

Posted : 09/12/2020 7:19 pm
Koyo liked
Bill2020
(@bill2020)
Active Member

While lithos can be printed flat as you describe, and I have done those, the best detail is to print them standing up on one of the edges. The various sites where you can generate lithos assumes that is the case. Because laying flat is poor detail.  All my lithos when I was printing on the i3 clone/glass build plate were done standing up. Hense what I am trying to achieve with the MK3S+. 

Thanks for your prompt response. 

Posted : 09/12/2020 7:58 pm
Koyo liked
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member
Posted by: @bill2020

While lithos can be printed flat as you describe, and I have done those, the best detail is to print them standing up on one of the edges. The various sites where you can generate lithos assumes that is the case. Because laying flat is poor detail.  All my lithos when I was printing on the i3 clone/glass build plate were done standing up. Hense what I am trying to achieve with the MK3S+. 

Thanks for your prompt response. 

Oh really.  I've only seen them printed flat with the detail side up.

I'll have to try vertical for a project I have been thinking about and see how it works.

I can see how doing them vertically might lead to the print breaking away from the plate.

This post was modified 4 months ago by jsw
Posted : 09/12/2020 9:51 pm
Koyo
 Koyo
(@koyo)
Active Member

I think standing up is the best way to get detail. When I first got my MK3S, I wasn't able to get PLA to stick. What I had to do was clean it thoroughly with IPA, do a few passes of the included glue stick, then use some more IPA to create a thin glue stick layer. Even with this, though, I'd still suggest using a brim.

If you do choose to print it as jsw suggested, though, the contact area should be large enough to stick. 

(Some PLA's just don't like sticking to the textured PEI, though. I've had one brand that warps, while other brands stick fine if the first layer is good.)

This post was modified 4 months ago by Koyo
Posted : 10/12/2020 5:38 am
Bill2020 liked
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member

Now you've got me going on a project I've been intending to do but never started, involving a gift for my wife of a backlighted lithophane of her favorite cat (recently passed on).  I converted the photo to the .stl and I'm printing one flat against the plate, and one vertically, and we'll see if there is much of a difference.  The flat one is printing, print time 4 hours, the vertical one will take 8 hours to print!

Posted : 10/12/2020 7:38 pm
Bill2020
(@bill2020)
Active Member

@koyo

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions Koyo! Very interesting about the glue stick. I already have been using a large brim, and cleaning with IPA. I have been printing lithos for years, and the only way to get good detail is upright. So no way will I go the way of printing them flat. 

Thanks again!

Posted : 10/12/2020 9:17 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member

Here's some prints to compare.

Instead of me telling you which one was printed upright, and which one was printed flat against the bed, let's see if anyone wishes to take a guess which one is which.  These are done from the same photo, obviously, and the same .stl, same filament (Paramount white PETg) with the only difference being one upright and the other flat against the bed.  They are both 100mm square.  One took about 8 hours to print, the other about 4 hours.

You can easily tell which is which by the position of the clip holding them upright for these quick shots.

Any guesses?

This post was modified 4 months ago by jsw
Posted : 11/12/2020 4:23 am
Bill2020
(@bill2020)
Active Member

Of the large images, top one standing, bottom one laying flat. 

Posted : 11/12/2020 4:29 am
Koyo
 Koyo
(@koyo)
Active Member

I think the left one has to be the upright one for sure. I think the theory behind printing vertically is that you get more detail in that direction. For example, if you had small dots (<1mm) on the face, then it would simply be a small x/y move to get that, and it would look good. If it was on its face, however, then the extruder would do a small dot of filament. Another reason is stair-stepping. If you've ever printed something spherical, you'll know how the layers are particularly more noticeable on the curved top than on the more vertical sides.  I think in the picture on the right, those darker black dots are just tiny dots of filament (which are less precise) when on the left image, it's simply a gradual x/y movement.  

This post was modified 4 months ago by Koyo
Posted : 11/12/2020 4:51 am
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Famed Member

One on the left was printed upright I think

Posted : 11/12/2020 6:10 am
Swiss_Cheese
(@swiss_cheese)
Honorable Member

 large images, top one standing, bottom one laying flat.would be my guess also, top one looks sharper to me.

This post was modified 4 months ago by Swiss_Cheese
Posted : 11/12/2020 3:53 pm
Area51
(@area51)
Prominent Member

Large images, top is vertical and bottom is horizontal . All the dots on the bottom one must be extrusion start stop.

Have a look at my designs on Thingiverse or on PrusaPrinters ;)...
Posted : 11/12/2020 4:38 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member

Yes, everyone is correct.  The left/top one is the standing-up print.

When viewing them in real life, holding them up to a room light, the horizontal (right/bottom) one does show better details in the whiskers, but that's about it.  Those are printed as overhangs in the vertical prints and there is some (but not that much) degree of sagging.

Also, the catchlight in the cat's right eye (camera left), not very visible in the photos above, is more prominent in the horizontal print.

There's obviously more artifact in the horizontal print.

Oh, and this was done on the smooth sheet.  I would never try using the textured sheet for a print this tall (100mm) with such a small footprint.  I used a strip of Layerneer as a release agent for the PETg.

I learned something today, and got a better print technique.  I do not do lithophanes that often, but I appreciate the lessons here.

This post was modified 4 months ago by jsw
Posted : 11/12/2020 4:47 pm
StanHD liked
mrstoned
(@mrstoned)
Estimable Member

I have done most of my lithos on my Nereus (glassbed+glue+8mm brim) and QQ-s delta (ultrabase bed+8mm brim) all standning up.

 

The size of nozzle also plays with detail, with a smaller nozzle you can do flat lithos fine, but 0.4 and above gives sharper details standing up.

I have gotten fair flat logostyles lithos even with a 0.6 nozzle for example.

 

Flsun QQ-s "pro". Tevo Nereus. Prusa Mini+ KIT on order....
Posted : 12/12/2020 3:41 pm
AnnieR
(@annier)
Eminent Member

Just started doing lithos a couple months ago and always do them standing up. 

Posted : 12/12/2020 5:27 pm
Bill2020
(@bill2020)
Active Member

@mrstoned

Sure, but how about on the Prusa MK3S with the textured build plate?

Posted : 12/12/2020 5:28 pm
mrstoned
(@mrstoned)
Estimable Member

@bill2020

Sorry, i missed that part.

I have read that they not recommend the texture sheet with PLA in a section with filaments and surfaces. Think it was a blog post about materials.

Flsun QQ-s "pro". Tevo Nereus. Prusa Mini+ KIT on order....
Posted : 12/12/2020 5:49 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member
Posted by: @mrstoned

@bill2020

Sorry, i missed that part.

I have read that they not recommend the texture sheet with PLA in a section with filaments and surfaces. Think it was a blog post about materials.

Overall, I have had very good luck with the textured sheet and PLA filament.  I do like the surface it produces.

However, I would never use the textured sheet for a vertical lithophane such as the one above.  The smooth sheet is the better tool for an object with such a small footprint.

Posted : 12/12/2020 8:50 pm
Swiss_Cheese
(@swiss_cheese)
Honorable Member

Textured sheet works fine for Litho's with a layer of TPU down first it wont go anywhere. for those of you that only have textured sheets and still want to do litho's

Posted : 13/12/2020 12:28 pm
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