Strange adhesion problem  

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Yeshead
(@yeshead)
Active Member

Hello,

I have a strange adhesion problem on my MK3S+.

First of all, I spend many hours to get the calibration right and I'm fully satisfied with it now. I have printed more than 150 hours now.

The first layer is 0.2 mm thick (measured) and seems to be okay.

The problem is on one side of the smooth PEI.

On one side I can print everything just fine.

If I use the other side of the smooth PEI there seems to be a bit of warping (on one side of the print, approx. 50 mm of the centre).

It is small but it is there en because it is so small I have no pictures attached.

If I look good at the PEI I can see nothing that could explain it, there is no damage, everything looks fine.

I cleaned it with aceton and I use also Isopropanol.

Anyone any idea what this can be?

Is there a way to clean the surface of the smooth PEI (is light sanding a possiblity?)

Posted : 07/05/2021 7:00 pm
JoanTabb
(@joantabb)
Moderator

Try washing with dish soap and water.

regards Joan

I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK...
Posted : 07/05/2021 7:43 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

 

If that does not work, recheck your live Z.  

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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 07/05/2021 8:39 pm
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(@)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: @yeshead

Is there a way to clean the surface of the smooth PEI (is light sanding a possiblity?)

Sanding is never required, nor is it a good idea. 

I did once use a rubbing compound to remove scratches made by getting the nozzle too close, but I can't even recommend that.  If PLA isn't sticking, an acetone scrub can help to remove oxides that do build up; followed with a drop of dish soap and hot water to wash away what the acetone lifts.  And I never follow soap and water with alcohol. I do use alcohol, but again, I follow that with soap and hot water.

Posted : 07/05/2021 8:46 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

Sanding should be a last resort - right up there with acetone.  

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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 07/05/2021 9:51 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

Sanding should be a last resort - right up there with acetone.  

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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 07/05/2021 9:51 pm
Yeshead
(@yeshead)
Active Member

Hello All,

I tried wash it with soap and hot water.

It helped a little bit but not as expected. There was still some warping.

The Z-calibration is good and has nothing to do with it because it only happens on one side of the PEI sheet (the other side prints all right)  and only on a certain spot (range).

So, I must have damaged the surface but I can't see anything.

On one side I can print everything all right, the other side I don't use anymore.

So the only solution looks like buy another one.

 

Posted : 16/05/2021 1:06 pm
JoanTabb
(@joantabb)
Moderator

@yeshead

If one side is no longer sticking, 
try washing it again, using hot water and dishsoap, but this time, use the scotchbright side of a kitchen sponge, you have nothing to lose and may regain use of that side... 
regards Joan

I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK...
Posted : 16/05/2021 2:42 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@yeshead

You do not need to buy another necessarily.  As Joan said, give it a good scrubbing

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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 16/05/2021 3:03 pm
Dan Rogers
(@dan-rogers)
Prominent Member

@yeshead

I would not make that assumption myself.  I have found there is no such thing as a good Z calibration.  It's a myth.  Changing colors of filament or brand can change what the first layer Z height needs to be.  If you have simply printed a calibration pattern - good for you.  But that is the "get it close to ready" step, not the end all.  Are you familiar with the live-z menu choice?  It is there to dial in the first layer at any time.  

Calibration patterns are subjective - and they are not one-and done.  A change in humidity could require a Z adjustment.  As I mentioned, different colors need different Z very often, and each type (brand or material) can require adjustment.

Stop beating your head against the wall and do a live Z calibration while your second side prints.  Learn what a good first layer squish looks like - I wear maginfiers to check it.  Watch it as whatever the thing is you are printing that is having problems - be ready to make sure the whole skirt and the whole first layer look good.

And turn on 7x7 bed mesh leveling.

Posted : 16/05/2021 3:08 pm
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(@)
Illustrious Member

@joantabb

When PLA stops sticking to any of my print sheets, it goes immediately to the sink. Period.  After a scrub with a paper towel and a few drops of detergent, I rinse is the hottest water I can get from my tap (130f+), and let it run for a few minutes. Then I dry and place the sheet on the rpinter and I am back in business; it works 100% of the time, every time.

And not to start a "this is best war" with Joan --- lol -- paper towel fibers (aka wood) are actually more abrasive than the blue non-scratch Scotch-Brite material. So I stick with paper towels rather than risk accidentally using my regular dish sponge. Why? Because I have picked up my disk sponge instead of that new sponge I had taken out of the bag ... and getting the butter scum off the sheet was a real task.

Posted : 16/05/2021 8:25 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@tim-2

That is why I use the "Green" Sponges from Scotch - More abrasive and still not scratch.

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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 16/05/2021 9:24 pm
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(@)
Illustrious Member

@cwbullet

I haven't been able to find any definitive source (like 3M) that says the green and blue scratchless sponges are any different. Can you point me at one?

Posted : 16/05/2021 9:34 pm
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(@)
Illustrious Member

Here's 3M's specs: the only difference is blue is non-scratch - both are heavy duty... lol.

Blue:

 
Cleaning Strength
Absorb, Heavy Duty, Non-Scratch, Wipe
Made with Sustainable Attributes
No
Package Contents
3 Pack, 9 Pack
Product Type
Scrub Sponge
Recommended Surfaces
Bath, Countertops, Glass CookTop, Non-Stick Cookware
Size
1 Pack, 12 Pack, 4.4 in x 2.5 in x .8 in, 4.4 in x 2.6 in x .8 in
Size (Imperial)
4 in x 2.6 in x 0.9 in, 4.4 in x 2.6 in x 0.8 in, 4.5 in x 2.6 in x 0.9 in, 2.6 in x 4 in, 2.6 in x 4.4 in, 2.6 in x 4.5 in
Type of Cleaning
Absorb, Non-Scratch, Quick Cleaning, Scrub, Wipe

 

Green

Specifications
Cleaning Strength
Absorb, Heavy Duty, Wipe
Made with Sustainable Attributes
Yes
Package Contents
2 Pack
Product Type
Scrub Sponge
Recommended Surfaces
Pots & Pans
Size
4.5 in x 2.7 in x .6 in
Size (Imperial)
3 in x 4.5 in x 0.6 in, 4.5 in x 2.7 in x 0.6 in, 4.5 in x 2.75 in x 0.6 in, 2.7 in x 4.5 in, 2.75 in x 4.5 in, 4.5 in x 2.75 in, 4.5 in x 3 in
Type of Cleaning
Absorb, Quick Cleaning, Scrub, Wipe
 
This post was modified 4 weeks ago 2 times by --
Posted : 16/05/2021 9:39 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: @tim-2

@cwbullet

I haven't been able to find any definitive source (like 3M) that says the green and blue scratchless sponges are any different. Can you point me at one?

Assuming the pads a genuine Scotch-Brite, they color code the pads:

I've seen several notes that the green kitchen pads are equivalent to their 6448. The woodworking and automotive groups have a lot of details on these pads. Not authoritative but:

SCOTCHBRITE GRIT CHART (courtesy of Charlest) back to top
3M Scotch Brite Nylon Pads:
7445 - White pad, called Light Duty Cleansing - (1000) 1200-1500 grit
7448 - Light Grey, called Ultra Fine Hand - (600-800) 800 grit.
6448 - Green (?), called Light Duty Hand Pad - (600) 600 grit
7447 - Maroon pad, called General Purpose Hand - (320-400) 320 grit
6444 - Brown pad, called Extra Duty Hand - (280-320) 240 grit
7446 - Dark Grey pad, called Blending Pad (180-220) 150 grit
7440 - Tan pad, called Heavy Duty Hand Pad - (120-150) 60(?)
Green Scotch Brite is available EVERYWHERE. It's 600 grit.
Blue Scotch-Brite is considered to be about 1000 grit.
(The value inside the parentheses is directly from 3M.)
3M Chart

This post was modified 4 weeks ago 3 times by bobstro
My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 16/05/2021 9:49 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@bobstro

Bob,

I meant the "Greener" sponges.  

https://www.amazon.com/Scotch-Brite-Greener-Non-Scratch-Plant-Based-6-Sponges/dp/B00JEQG4X8/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=green+scotch+sponges&qid=1621219952&sr=8-9

They might not be rougher, but I found they work better and last longer for me.  That and I can keep them straight from the ones I use for dishes.  

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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 17/05/2021 3:54 am
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