Firstlayer support problems (stickiness?)  

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julius.l2
(@julius-l2)
Active Member

Hello everybody! 

Have been having som problems over some time now when I' m printing with support. The problems is that very first layer where the printer adds separate strings to build the support on, and in the very end of some of the lines it get loosen a bit (draged up?).

Then when the printer does it's second layer the head hits those little up bent sides and sometimes destroy the support. 

If it survive that first layer everything prints very good and firstlayer without support is perfect. 

SO what i have tried to play around bed adhesive and bed temperature to get it to stick without any change. 
Also cleaned nozzle and checked for bed inconsistency (But this happen all over the bed). 
tried alot of different filament from high-end to low-end without success. 

So do anyone have a idea of what i can do or where i can start to search for this error, i feel very confused.

Sorry for a bad image my phonecamera is cracked.

//thanks 

 

(this is when the printer have destroyed the support with it second layer) 

This is a very bad case where you can se the lifted ends of the support.

Posted : 30/10/2019 8:13 am
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(@)
Illustrious Member

Soap and water is the best cure for poor bed adhesion. Really.  Better than alcohol wipes, glustik, hair spray, even sanding.

Wash the bed in hot water, using a few drops of Dawn or Fairy dish detergent on a paper towel as the scrubber.  Rinse for several minutes under hot water. Dry with fresh paper towels.  Handle the bed by the edges, keep hands and fingers off the print surface.  This goes for removing parts, too. Use tools like a plastic razor blade to lift parts.

Here's a bed cleaned very well with alcohol: and one wash at the sink cured the problem.

 

This post was modified 2 years ago by --
Posted : 30/10/2019 8:35 am
julius.l2
(@julius-l2)
Active Member

Well i clearly looks like my problem but i thot i have gone threw with thorough cleaning with both soap and other alternatives. But i will give it one more try! 😀 

//thanks

Posted : 30/10/2019 8:41 am
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(@)
Illustrious Member

Seriously, soap and water - when washed and rinsed at a sink with fresh paper towels -- no dish rags or dish towel - and the bed is placed back on the printed and handled by the edges -- works rather well.

Sheets that are old and worn can need an acetone scrub to refresh them: pour a half ounce of acetone on the bed and using a fresh paper towel scrub the bed thoroughly. There should be a white film when you are done if there is old PLA on the surface.  Wash that film off at the sink, then back at the printer, using a large wad of paper towel so the acetone can't wick to your fingers give the bed one more wipe.  Any streaks mean there is still something on the bed.

Sometimes if the bed is quite dirty and not washed in a while, it might take a coupe washes like this.

The photos you posted above show a dirty bed.  The PLA not sticking confirms the bed is dirty.  Gettingit clean, free of oils, is worth the effort and keeping it that way is a best practice.

Posted : 30/10/2019 8:48 am
julius.l2
(@julius-l2)
Active Member

Thanks! will follow you guide for the bed and hopefully have this simpel problem fixed! 😀 

The dirty you see on the picture is gluestick, i felt like it worked better with it but might just been that i glued over the dirt? 

But will try it tonight and come back with results! 

//thanks!

Posted : 30/10/2019 8:52 am
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(@)
Illustrious Member

ps: I've ruined 24 hour prints with a single fingerprint spread around with alcohol.  Keeping my PEI sheet clean was a hard earned lesson.

Here's one print where it sort of clicked a finger print can be a problem. Yes, the PLA was tearing where the worst print is.  I tried cleaning the bed with alcohol, but that only spread it around. Layer one looked better, but the print came loose hours later.

Posted : 30/10/2019 8:53 am
julius.l2
(@julius-l2)
Active Member

Damn i love the prusa community! But yeah Tim-m30, seems like you were totally correct about the bed. did a good clean and got a print running and it sticked way better now with just good soap and carefull no touching. 

Also did a retake on my brand of isoprop alcohol which seem to be the real villain to my mystery, after a really good look into a "cleaned" bed i seems to leave some sort of film after it, migth be the "pusharound of fat" as you said? but it seems to leave it also when i clean with soap and go after with alcohol. Will buy a new iso and see if there is a difference.

Anyway learnt a lesson and mostly not to be lazy on the cleanside.  
Thanks a lot again for the help!

Posted : 30/10/2019 3:20 pm
rmm200
(@rmm200)
Noble Member

IPA notes:

Some folks use 50%. I consider that very risky. No telling what the other 50% is.

I started out using 70%, shared with first aid supplies. Big mistake - don't share your IPA...

I now use 99%, put in a squeeze bottle. Nothing ever touches the tip. Very happy with this arrangement. IPA stays clean.

Posted : 30/10/2019 7:05 pm
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(@)
Illustrious Member

Alcohol can work, but I don't think folks use enough, or the proper wiping method.  It has to be applied, scrubbed around and picked up before it evaporates.  The bed must not be warm: it must be cool at room temperature. And, the user must keep the alcohol from wicking to his fingers during this process, or the alcohol does a great job of adding more oil to the mix.  Gloves prevent the wicking from fingers.

So I now avoid alcohol: it's just too demanding and even when I've done a good job with it, it is never as good as coming back from the sink.

Posted : 30/10/2019 8:10 pm
Crunch
(@crunch)
Estimable Member
Wash the bed then increase the bed temp 5 degrees increase the first layer nozzle temp 5 degrees and lower the z.  For PLA I have my bed at 65 and my z is an additional  -220 more than the smooth pei sheet z.  For petg the bed is 85 degrees nozzle 240 degrees and again increase the z -200 to 300 more than the smooth pei sheet
 
Posted by: @julius-l2

Hello everybody! 

Have been having som problems over some time now when I' m printing with support. The problems is that very first layer where the printer adds separate strings to build the support on, and in the very end of some of the lines it get loosen a bit (draged up?).

Then when the printer does it's second layer the head hits those little up bent sides and sometimes destroy the support. 

If it survive that first layer everything prints very good and firstlayer without support is perfect. 

SO what i have tried to play around bed adhesive and bed temperature to get it to stick without any change. 
Also cleaned nozzle and checked for bed inconsistency (But this happen all over the bed). 
tried alot of different filament from high-end to low-end without success. 

So do anyone have a idea of what i can do or where i can start to search for this error, i feel very confused.

Sorry for a bad image my phonecamera is cracked.

//thanks 

 

(this is when the printer have destroyed the support with it second layer) 

This is a very bad case where you can se the lifted ends of the support.

 

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Posted : 31/10/2019 3:22 am
Xaimav
(@xaimav)
New Member

Been printing for a couple of weeks without issues (MK3S) but the first time I had to use support extensively I ended up with the exact same issue!
I've been using IPA 99% to clean my Prusa powder coated sheet all that time and it was working great until I tried to print with lots of supports on the first layer.

Never tried to clean the sheet with hot water and soap (using Dawn) and to my surprise it worked!!!
I'm now printing those supports perfectly and they all stick nicely to the sheet.
Thkx for the tips! 🙂

This post was modified 4 months ago by Xaimav
Posted : 11/02/2021 1:17 am
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