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7X7 Mesh Bed Leveling much faster on new printer  

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Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
RE: Lowered Speed of SuperPinda

Same here, I have two MK3S updated last week and am super disappointed for two reasons:

1) One updated MK3S still performs great and the other doesn't. Both w/ SuperPINDA now.

2) PRUSA support seems even a bit hostile in stating over and over again, that this is not a bug, it's a feature (same whart Ringl mentioned). When I mentioned this thread they just said "If we thought that providing a replacement would fix this we would, but the fact is this is not a defect no matter what you read in the forum."

Pretty irritating to me. I learned in my life that when I see reactions like this it usually turned out to be problem. There is no information that SuperPINDA is slower. The opposite is true: The KB states that even with the SuperPINDA it should take less than a minute: https://help.prusa3d.com/en/article/mesh-bed-leveling_112163

My mesh bed leveling now takes 66% longer (85s vs. 51s, 7x7, 3 probes, magnetic comp on). What really irritates me that this is not consistent. Two brand new upgrade kits delieverd 2w ago. One SuperPINDA is performing as well as the old V2 PINDA and the other one is not. Support even stated that my expectations as a customer are wrong. Half a minute might not be noteworthy. But to me personally it is.

If PRUSA is not resolving this I am going to reinstall the old one. There wasn't a problem with the old one at all. I love technology and thought it was a good idea to keep my machines technically up to date. Wasted money and - even worse - time in this case. BTW my new MINI+ is also equipped with the SuperPINDA and does not suffer from that problem either. Fast bed leveling. 

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by Alexander
Posted : 22/07/2021 10:19 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
SPindas

How much difference in time between the two SPindas?  

I have installed 5 SuperPindas on my MK3S and 3 to go.  I purchased 1-2 a month as they become available so I would think I have acquired both types, but obviously, I did not.  My SPindas all appear to function the same.   

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 22/07/2021 10:31 am
Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
Time Difference 66%

My mesh bed leveling now takes 34 seconds 66% longer (85s vs. 51s, 7x7, 3 probes, magnetic comp on). 

Posted : 22/07/2021 10:34 am
Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
RE: Video

Here's my video that PRUSA support has finally requested:

This post was modified 2 months ago by Alexander
Posted : 22/07/2021 11:23 am
ROSLAN
(@roslan)
Active Member
RE: 7X7 Mesh Bed Leveling much faster on new printer

Interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Ineed my upgraded MK3 (which is now a MK3S+) was one of the first upgrade orders they shipped out. Seems like that there was a difference SuperPINDA in there.

Posted : 22/07/2021 11:36 am
Ringl
(@ringl)
New Member
RE: 7X7 Mesh Bed Leveling much faster on new printer

Im also a little bit disappointed on this SPinda "upgrade"...

I think the most irritating thing on this "problem" or "feature" is that there is absolutly no mentioning of this slower behaviour of the SPinda in assembly instructions or maybe in the article in the blog for the +Upgrade, users which stumble across this may look about the problem in the forum and finding some people have SPinda+fast probing and some users have SPinda+slower probing and no one knows why and where is the difference to introduce this..... I think the Support will have likely more users asking about this behaviour if they don´t state this clearly in the instructions...

Also it seems the mini+ with SPinda (searched about it in forum, maybe overlooked something) seem not to suffer from this "problem", seems to be only MK3S+ related.....

Hope Prusa can get this one sorted and can shed a light on the differences we get.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Ringl
Posted : 23/07/2021 7:47 am
Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
SOLUTION: Replacement

After literally fighting with PRUSA support to get a replacement (10 emails going back and forth) they eventually gave in and sent a replacement. As expected the new SuperPINDA works as ecpected.

I did a quick and dirty test my adding the new SuperPINDA to the printer w/o dismantling everything. Will do it right in the next few days.

Honestly I see an issue with PRUSA's support here. Maybe they are growing too fast. But at least this person was not committed to the customers satisfaction but keeping telling me: "If we thought that providing a replacement would fix this we would, but the fact is this is not a defect no matter what you read in the forum."

They now turned me from a totally loyal customer into a very disappointed customer in order to save a few bucks. So sad.

Posted : 27/07/2021 10:47 am
Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
RE: SOLUTION: Replacement

After literally fighting with PRUSA support to get a replacement (10 emails going back and forth) they eventually gave in and sent a replacement. As expected the new SuperPINDA works flawless with the speed I had before.

I did a quick and dirty test by adding the new SuperPINDA to the printer w/o dismantling everything. Will do it right in the next few days.

Honestly I see an issue with PRUSA's support here. Maybe they are growing too fast. But at least this person was not committed to the customers satisfaction but kept telling me: "If we thought that providing a replacement would fix this we would, but the fact is this is not a defect no matter what you read in the forum."

They now turned me from a totally loyal happy and excited customer into a very disappointed customer in order to save a few bucks. So sad.

This post was modified 2 months ago 4 times by Alexander
Posted : 27/07/2021 10:48 am
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Is it defective if it works?
Posted by: @alexander-3

[...] Honestly I see an issue with PRUSA's support here. Maybe they are growing too fast. But at least this person was not committed to the customers satisfaction but kept telling me: "If we thought that providing a replacement would fix this we would, but the fact is this is not a defect no matter what you read in the forum."

I can understand why you'd want the faster leveling, but I can see it from the support agent's side. If there are no published numbers for how fast probing should be and it is successfully completing leveling, it is working. If you only had one printer, you might never think there was a problem. Prusa is pretty good at customer satisfaction, but their resources aren't infinite. I'm glad you got it worked out in any case.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 27/07/2021 3:25 pm
Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
RE: Less than a minute is what PRUSA says.

"If there are no published numbers for how fast probing should be and it is successfully completing leveling, it is working. "

Well there are: “However, even the slowest variant will finish in under a minute.”
Source: https://help.prusa3d.com/en/article/mesh-bed-leveling_112163

My faulty SuperPINDA took 85s which is significantly slower than stated in PRUSA's article. It was faster before, the other printer I upgraded w/ SuperPINDA was as fast as it was before. My MINI+ is as fast as advertised (w/ SuperPINDA). So what else should I think?

This is my perspective. Maybe too demanding. If I were support I'd replace it if a customer complains, unless they would clearly state that it'll be slower than PINDA V2. In this case I would not have upgraded my MK3S in the first place. It was only for the SuperPINDA.  

I still believe that it's not worth fighting with a customer and insist that you are right and the customer is wrong. But on the other side, what do I know?

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by Alexander
Posted : 27/07/2021 3:38 pm
kennd liked
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: 7X7 Mesh Bed Leveling much faster on new printer
Posted by: @alexander-3

"If there are no published numbers for how fast probing should be and it is successfully completing leveling, it is working. "

Well there are: “However, even the slowest variant will finish in under a minute.”
Source: https://help.prusa3d.com/en/article/mesh-bed-leveling_112163

Oh, I'm not saying you should have been satisfied or that there wasn't a problem. I was thinking more published numbers on probe times (data sheet stuff). Just noting that the agent does have a responsibility to not just give stuff away. I can understand why they might have wanted to verify at least while SuperPINDAs were hard to get. This was definitely an odd case and they may be setting some parameters internally if it happens again. I think yours is the 2nd report on this I've seen.

Meanwhile, I have to wait 24+ hours for an email response for "support" with my other printer...

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 27/07/2021 3:47 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Solution

Blame is not a worthwhile endeavor.  You problem is solved.  No reason to focus on the past.  

I am glad you printers are working.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 27/07/2021 5:36 pm
Ringl
(@ringl)
New Member
RE: SOLUTION: Replacement

Good to hear that you´ve got finally a solution, i really hope Prusa-team can do this for others with slow Spinda too.... Honestly i really bought the upgrade-kit in first place for the Spinda upgrade and second to print+mount the latest Extruder-parts and also Y-Axis. Mounted the Extruder-Update with Spinda and Y-Axis, getting rid of these U-Bolts and cableties on Y is also quite nice, everything went smooth putting it together. I didn´t expect a noticeable upgrade but also didn´t expect to have slower speeds @ bed-probing as this is very noticeable. In my opinion its not a minor difference, its quite noticeable and i think if it really should be the normal behaviour it would have been mentioned that it`s slower but better. And even it´s a minor time difference in overall printtime results, right now it doesn´t feel really like an Upgrade to me knowing this thread and differences now, seeing printers with Spinda´s probing at the used, fast speeds...I already wrote to support once again but i don´t have high hopes that they will reply other then its normal having lowered speeds @ probing, if i order a new Spinda once again right now to get a fast one, as mine was ordered very end of june, feels little bit adventurous too.

I think everyone is confused if you see different behaviour of your machine then you are used to after mounting some new parts. Seeing others getting different results then yours with obviously the same new parts doesn´t make you feeling better about it....

Posted : 27/07/2021 6:00 pm
Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
Customer attitude

Blame is not a worthwhile endeavor.  You problem is solved.  No reason to focus on the past.  

I am glad you printers are working

Not blaming but expressing my disappointment. Thank you for your compassion. 

I believe PRUSA must address this once and for all. Make a clear statement that you must expect a significant slower bed leveraging. 

As Ringl mentioned I too would not have invested in the upgrade of my printer. 

I would have downgraded to the old PINDA V2. But that would have rendered the upgrade a waste of time and money. 

I still consider this a faulty part. Why would two identical parts behave so differently? What is the specification? Why does that happen in the first place. 

Problem solved and I should be happy. But when I send them the result another person still replied that they were not obliged to replace it as everything was OK. 

I am a big believer in the Amazon principle. They never even question what the customer claims. Customer first! They apologize and fix it. No Questions asked. Sure this is the other extreme. Still believe that PRUSA attitude towards the customers can be improved. 

And if there are indeed only a very few cases (as mentioned above) they shouldn't even think about fighting with the customer. Just fix it. 

Again, this is is my opinion. If PRUSA reads this and starts to think it was worth it. 

Posted : 27/07/2021 6:27 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Being Amazon is a nice problem to have
Posted by: @alexander-3
 
[...] I am a big believer in the Amazon principle. They never even question what the customer claims. Customer first! They apologize and fix it. No Questions asked.
I'm sure JP would love to have a company big enough that he could afford to play around in space too! I suspect he'd use the profits to build MakerSpaces instead.
 
Again, I understand your frustration, but Prusa is not Amazon. They provide very high quality and service for the price. You had to grumble a bit, and it does sound like there's a wide range of SuperPINDA performance. There are likely a few outliers. 
 
Lest you think I'm suggesting nobody complain about Prusa, I had my own issues with my textured PEI sheet. While I'm not happy with the resolution, Prusa is still an excellent company. I am just noting that the agent has to make calls that sometimes don't go our way. You're absolutely right to bring the complaint forward. I'm just not ready to condemn the company over it myself.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 27/07/2021 6:35 pm
Alexander
(@alexander-3)
Trusted Member
Being Amazonish ot not being Amazonish. That is the question!

I'm sure JP would love to have a company big enough that he could afford to play around in space too! I suspect he'd use the profits to build MakerSpaces instead.

Although this now a discussion on PRUSA customer service and customer service in general. Let's think for a moment slightly differently. PRUSA needs its customers in order to make profit. Even if the profit will be invested again, which is great. Don't you think that instead of fighting with the customer, spending certainly at least 30min of their support time which cannot be used for other users, just sending out a replacement that costs them presumably less than 20 EUR in total?

Szenario 1: They fight the customer like in this case: customer is mad, they still had to spend the replacement part and customer may not buy a new machine or recommend PRUSA to others.

Szenario 2: They replace the part, customer is happy (despite the fact that he wasted quite some time to investigate the problem and now replace a part) and is grateful. The price: less than 20 EUR. 5min support time invested.

What would you do? The question for every organization is: how much can you afford to be not-Amazonish in todays competitive world? Every organization that thought that their customers owe them something because they are willing to sell their stuff had to learn it the hard way that this works exactly until their products exhibit flaws. 

Just my 5 ct. Now I'm out. Happy printing!

Posted : 27/07/2021 6:48 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Jamming

I too have had issues with Prusa and a few of their printers and products. I have had good support and after a few calls to chat, each issue was resolved.  My biggest issue was with a Bondtech extruder and mosquito added to a Prusa.  I am still having some intermittent jamming after 2 years.  I realize it happens.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 27/07/2021 7:23 pm
Foofighter55
(@foofighter55)
New Member
Random mix of fast/slow here

I have a totally random mix of fast and slow probes during a mesh bed level. Other times, and it’s really rare, the whole process will go quickly.

I’d really like a fix for it since the slower leveling gives the nozzle more time to ooze. 

Posted : 04/08/2021 7:04 pm
kennd
(@kennd)
Estimable Member

Thanks for posting the Screenshot. I followed your link when I read your first post. Actually read it several times trying to figure out which one of us lost it 🙂 , because I could not find what you were referencing. I forced myself to read through all the <> posts and found your screenshot. Good news! Neither of us had lost it. On 07/28/2921 the sentence you referred to was deleted from the Knowledgebase.

PR had resolved the problem. There is no longer a time limit for successful completion of the MBL, and users will just have to adjust their expectations of the printer. ☹️ 

Kenn

Quality is the Journey, not the Destination
MK3S, Nylock mod, Modified Y-axis bearing mounting
MK3S kit waiting to be assembled (still)
Primary CAD program: Trimble Sketchup Make 2017(standalone) with 3D extensions
My limited prints on Prusaprinters.org...
Posted : 04/08/2021 11:17 pm
Foofighter55
(@foofighter55)
New Member
Are the faster and slower SPINDAs visually different?

 

Posted by: @alexander-3

After literally fighting with PRUSA support to get a replacement (10 emails going back and forth) they eventually gave in and sent a replacement. As expected the new SuperPINDA works flawless with the speed I had before.

I did a quick and dirty test by adding the new SuperPINDA to the printer w/o dismantling everything. Will do it right in the next few days.

Honestly I see an issue with PRUSA's support here. Maybe they are growing too fast. But at least this person was not committed to the customers satisfaction but kept telling me: "If we thought that providing a replacement would fix this we would, but the fact is this is not a defect no matter what you read in the forum."

They now turned me from a totally loyal happy and excited customer into a very disappointed customer in order to save a few bucks. So sad.

Are there any visible differences between the faster vs slower SPINDAs? If it seems like the faster one is a different version then it’s possible that all future orders would get the later version.. so if I ordered a new one it may fix it. 

Posted : 04/08/2021 11:40 pm
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