Powder coated sheet and soap water?
After a year of using my smooth sheet I cleaned it with soap water because no amount of IPA and Acetone would make my prints stick again. I was basically fine without soap for a year. Now while the powder coated version is out I ask myself what will happen with it after heavy use?
The blog states
Do not use solvents other than IPA under any circumstances!
Acetone, in particular, must not be used on the powder-coated sheet! Using acetone makes the surface (Ultem) crack, and eventually, it peels off. Also, the powder-coated sheet is not waterproof. When exposed to high humidity, it corrodes and loses its properties. Therefore, do not clean the sheet with water. It is possible to do that only if you have truly tried everything mentioned and your objects still don’t stick to the surface. It could mean that you have sugar-based compounds on your sheet that can’t be dissolved with IPA.
I understand that sheets are consumerables and I like the surface finish of it so the question is: is there experience with them and how to remove sugar based components from it?
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
I'll be honest, I washed mine *once* when it was fresh from the factory to remove any residue from fabrication. Then put it on the warm bed to dry before rust could form.
I've occasionally hit it with some IPA but have done quite a few prints on it without actually needing to clean; both PLA and PETG just stick and let go when cool; I can just pick up the parts so there's no need to actually handle the bed and get fingerprints on it. I keep a painters multi-tool on hand for skirts so I can get them started sans fingerprints, and deliberately use fingers on the purge line so that area stays somewhat slick and is very easy to remove.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
I've got very mixed feelings about this. The Prusa blog is stating that:
- We should not use acetone because it will eat at the thin PEI coating.
- We should not use water because it will rust.
Fair enough, but after having a bad time getting PLA to adhere, I spent a lengthy (and somewhat amusing) hour in chat with support. It felt like the good old says of Microsoft ("did you reboot it?") level questioning. The first response was that the sheet is a consumable, to which I replied that warranty applies to defective products, and mine never adhered. The rest of the session was spent sending pictures of all the progressively more inane hoops I was asked to jump through. End result: My year-long wait for a textured powder-coated spring steel sheet is almost useless for printing PLA.
So now... If I follow Prusa's guidelines, I can't use it reliably with PLA. If I use acetone or wash it, I'm going against their recommendations -- but perhaps it'll work for PLA? Prusa's support was happy to dismiss my problems with a comment that "the sheet is a consumable". If so, should I really worry about Prusa's suggestions for longevity?
I've read a few comments from folks saying they've done Dawn wash downs and acetone wipes and their PC sheet is working well enough, and I'm beginning to think a useless sheet isn't doing me much good and that I should just use my usual routine on it.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
@bobstro: Why not make some 50% IPA and add a tiny smidge of dishwashing liquid? it'll still evaporate far faster than water but be more effective at removing water-soluble components like salts and sugars. Don't add too much so as to leave a film though.
Personally I don't see any harm in using water on occasion if careful to dry it thoroughly and promptly. Or hit it with IPA right after a sink wash to dispel all remaining water; after all, most standard rubbing alcohol already contains water to begin with. They explicitly said water is not recommended because the sheet can rust; that takes time to happen.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
The never touch with water admonition is a non-real world, CYA rule.
A unusable sheet because you can never wash the plate well enough for PLA to stick - you may as well just chuck directly in the trash.
No don't leave it wet. Dawn wash and immediately dry with paper towel and hot heat bed. If it was going to rust that badly with just a brief exposure to water, the plate is doomed to rust anyways.
Is a Prusa textured plate THAT INFERIOR to a Thekkiinngg plate? I think not. And if it is that inferior, shame on Prusa.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
Makes you wonder if Windex will be safe, too.
Personally - I don't own one yet - I'd wash the sheet then stick it on the print bed and preheat to 100c for a few minutes to dry it. Ultem - by itself - is rated for autoclave use. So it's the metal boundary Prusa is worried about. Probably some farm experiences they've had running the sheets through a dishwasher.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
dishwasher? That's a hell of a lot more abrasive and corrosive environment than a hand wash.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
I am postulating they use dishwashers ... I know I'd get tired washing 500 beds a day by hand. I have no idea if they actually clean sheets that way. Sorry I wasn't more obvious in my post.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
The never touch with water admonition is a non-real world, CYA rule.
It definitely has that feel!
A unusable sheet because you can never wash the plate well enough for PLA to stick - you may as well just chuck directly in the trash.
Yeah, I'm thinking the same, except... It does work pretty well for big PETG pieces, and I am able to get a nice variety of textures with PLA printing on textured vinyl. Some people seem to be getting perfectly good results with PLA though, so I'm wondering if I really got a turd, or of there's a trick I'm missing.
[...] Is a Prusa textured plate THAT INFERIOR to a Thekkiinngg plate? I think not. And if it is that inferior, shame on Prusa.
Don't have a TheKKIINNGG to compare, but I did try out BuildTak, and while the texture isn't as nice and it can't do much above PLA temps, it sure is easy to work with. Just not very durable.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
Prints from theKKIINNGG V3 and V4 have similar to the Prusa PC textured. The Prusa PC sheet is not inferior to theKKIINNGG. It is better and worse in ways. I have 8 different PC sheets from various manufacturers. I would select the Prusa over them all for most purposes.
I used to wash my sheets with water and soap but find it unneeded. IPA only now.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
[...] I used to wash my sheets with water and soap but find it unneeded. IPA only now.
Are you using it for PLA without having to use brims or rafts? I wonder if it just needs to get seasoned like grandma's old skillet.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
[...snip...][...snip...]
This is a bit off topic, but your mentioning of the printing on textured vinyl reminded me that you had talked about that before. Have you tried diffraction gratings? See this learning guide (and embedded video) from AdaFruit about printing on diffraction grating:
https://learn.adafruit.com/3d-printing-on-diffraction-grating-sheets/
I already have some on order and will be experimenting in the next coming weeks.
See my (limited) designs on:
Printables - https://www.printables.com/@Sembazuru
Thingiverse - https://www.thingiverse.com/Sembazuru/designs
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
[...] This is a bit off topic, but your mentioning of the printing on textured vinyl reminded me that you had talked about that before. Have you tried diffraction gratings?
No, I had not seen that. Interesting! The automotive vinyl is nice with the pre-applied adhesive, but the gratings are an interesting idea. I was wondering about things like frosted glass, tiles, etc. Would need a very thick 1st layer, but it might be worthwhile.
I made myself stop with the vinyl when I caught myself about to order some leather and concrete textures.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
[...] I used to wash my sheets with water and soap but find it unneeded. IPA only now.
Are you using it for PLA without having to use brims or rafts? I wonder if it just needs to get seasoned like grandma's old skillet.
No rafts or brims for most prints. Only when they are tall and slim.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
[...] I used to wash my sheets with water and soap but find it unneeded. IPA only now.
Are you using it for PLA without having to use brims or rafts? I wonder if it just needs to get seasoned like grandma's old skillet.
same, PLA sticks a treat for me. As noted I washed it once to remove any factory residue and IPA a handful of times since then.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
I have washed both my old and new Prusa PC sheets as well as my TheKkinnggss without incident for a while now. To be clear, I am rinsing under a running sink just enough to get the Dawn dish soap off, I am not letting the sheets sit submerged in a dishpan or anything wild like that. I find it helpful when switching between Windex for PETG and IPA for PLA to ensure the sheets are clean and the old is fully removed
The key point is what Guy-K2 said, dry it off right after. I mean the sheets are powdercoated, which I thought was supposed to be a protective covering so the steel should not rust with light washing...
Strange women, laying in ponds, distributing swords, is hardly a basis for a system of governance!
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
I have noticed that ABS and PETG start sticking too much after a few prints. I am not sure why.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
A quick follow-up. I finally got sick of looking at my unused and unusable textured sheet, took it to the sink and defiantly washed it down with Dawn and water to remove any production contaminants, doused it with a sizable volume of acetone and gave it a good scrub, a final rinse with plain water and rub down with a shop towel. I'm now (knock on wood) getting good PLA adhesion, even with those tricky 1st layer supports:
Take this any way you like, but I'm feeling a lot more comfortable taking the suggestions from a community with deep experience using this surface than a sudden change in company policy based on support call volume. PEI is (unsurprisingly) still PEI. I'm not planning on drowning it in acetone, nor taking it in the bath. I'll keep it dry. If it degrades, I didn't have support on day 1, so yeah it's a consumable. It seems to be aging well. Much happier now.
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
Has anyone else had any issues with beds becoming too sticky with abs and PETG?
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Powder coated sheet and soap water?
Has anyone else had any issues with beds becoming too sticky with abs and PETG?
Not yet with the textured, although I haven't tried my ultimate 3DXTech PETG at 260C test yet. PETG up to 240C has been fine. PLA is now looking good after a good traditional clean. Do not use ABS.
I'll try to do a 260C test soon. I did see a report early in the PC sheet life cycle of someone suffering such over-adhesion and suffering a bit of damage to the PEI surface, so it's certainly possible.