Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
If you mean those customers that received a more expensive double-side PEI stickered sheet and will receive the $10 discount code and free shipping for the PC sheet when it's readily available, I assume it's because Prusa already provided those customers with a more expensive double-side PEI stickered sheet and they will receive the $10 discount code and free shipping for the PC sheet when it's readily available. That was Prusa's way of making amends. To add still-more people to the queue would result in those customers also expecting a more expensive double-side PEI stickered sheet and the $10 discount code and free shipping for the PC sheet when it's readily available, which could be the death of a small company.
But you're still missing something here. Prusa added the option to order a kit with PC sheet or stickered sheet later on. Those who ordered with PC sheet had their printers shipped out with the more expensive stickered sheet and then later received a PC sheet in the mail FOR FREE
So who got the better end of the deal here? Those who ordered the printer when the only available option was the PC sheet and are told that they'd have to buy the PC sheet, albeit at a discount, or those who got both sheets already for free because they selected the PC sheet as an option?
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
I'll take your word for it. I've read of people who ordered later having the option to choose a PC sheet and wait restored, opting to wait and getting it recently. If Prusa double-shipped some, well... I could see a screw-up happening, but I'm not going to believe a theory that has JP perusing his list and intentionally skipping those who ordered first. It doesn't make sense. (I recently ordered a 0.35mm nozzle elsewhere but got a 0.40mm instead. They shipped me a 0.35mm replacement and let me keep the 0.40mm. I don't expect them to ship free 0.40mm nozzles to everybody that received a 0.35mm nozzle.)
[...] But you're still missing something here. Prusa added the option to order a kit with PC sheet or stickered sheet later on. Those who ordered with PC sheet had their printers shipped out with the more expensive stickered sheet and then later received a PC sheet in the mail FOR FREE
In any case does it matter? Fundamentally, we've all been given Prusa's best effort at a solution. The solution is costing Prusa far more than the $25 value of the PC sheet. We've been able to print for the intervening months with the flex steel sheet. People seem to be more upset by the idea that someone else got a toy before them than the actual delay. I mean, I understand. I hate sticking with my lane in traffic, only to see the guy who drove up after me move ahead. (US border customs, grrr) but it happens. It's not a conspiracy.
So who got the raw end of the deal here? Those who ordered the printer when the only available option was the PC sheet and are told that they'd have to buy it, albeit at a discount, or those who got both sheets already for free because they selected it as an option?
In my mind, PRUSA got the raw end of the deal. They entered into a business arrangement that other parties have failed to live up to. Prusa did the same, but has made a significant (and in my mind, generous) attempt at resolution that is costing them nearly double the retail price of the part. They're surely not making a profit out of this mess. They're doing what they reasonably can.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
]I'll take your word for it. I've read of people who ordered later having the option to choose a PC sheet and wait restored, opting to wait and getting it recently. If Prusa double-shipped some, well... I could see a screw-up happening, but I'm not going to believe a theory that has JP perusing his list and intentionally skipping those who ordered first. It doesn't make sense. (I recently ordered a 0.35mm nozzle elsewhere but got a 0.40mm instead. They shipped me a 0.35mm replacement and let me keep the 0.40mm. I don't expect them to ship free 0.40mm nozzles to everybody that received a 0.35mm nozzle.)
In any case does it matter? Fundamentally, we've all been given Prusa's best effort at a solution. The solution is costing Prusa far more than the $25 value of the PC sheet. We've been able to print for the intervening months with the flex steel sheet. People seem to be more upset by the idea that someone else got a toy before them than the actual delay. I mean, I understand. I hate sticking with my lane in traffic, only to see the guy who drove up after me move ahead. (US border customs, grrr) but it happens. It's not a conspiracy.
You don't need to take my word for it, there were several threads here which had several posts from people who mysteriously received a free PC sheet on their doorstep one day.
People seem to be more upset by the idea that someone else got a toy before them than the actual delay. I mean, I understand. I hate sticking with my lane in traffic, only to see the guy who drove up after me move ahead. (US border customs, grrr) but it happens. It's not a conspiracy.
I couldn't care less about waiting if I felt that the situation was handled properly. Once again, those who selected PC sheet at checkout received their printer in the same amount of time as if they ordered the stickered sheet and they received their PC sheet later on when they were available. I felt that if Prusa was shipping the PC sheets they should have started at the very beginning of the line and worked their way down. Instead, they started in the middle and are working their way from the end of the line back to the beginning.
Once again, waiting doesn't chap me. Knowing that if I buy a printer today and select the PC sheet I could get the PC sheet sooner on that printer than on the printer that I ordered last October.
To me it seems like Prusa's priority is making the new customers whole so they can collect that money and then they'll get back to their loyal customers.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
I don't have a problem believing that it could happen. It wasn't according to what Prusa described would happen. I do have a hard time believing that Jo Prusa puts on his evil Santa persona and goes down a list selecting who does and doesn't get their goodies. They've had growing pains and shipping blunders aplenty.
[...] Once again, those who selected PC sheet at checkout received their printer in the same amount of time as if they ordered the stickered sheet and they received their PC sheet later on when they were available.
[...] I felt that if Prusa was shipping the PC sheets they should have started at the very beginning of the line and worked their way down. Instead, they started in the middle and are working their way from the end of the line back to the beginning.
I'll cite my coconut shrimp and cancelled flight examples again. Sometimes the best solution is going to put some people out. The alternative is to put even more people out, or get so far behind as to go under. As an adult, I'm often stuck in the slower moving line. It happens. It sucks, but it happens.
Once again, waiting doesn't chap me. Knowing that if I buy a printer today and select the PC sheet I could get the PC sheet sooner on that printer than on the printer that I ordered last October.
For which you were provided... oh nevermind. 😀
To me it seems like Prusa's priority is making the new customers whole so they can collect that money and then they'll get back to their loyal customers.
That is correct except you left "... after providing compensation to the tune of $45" off. They didn't just say "we'll get back to you".
So yeah, I really want my PC sheet. I wanted my coconut shrimp, but didn't expect them to shove other people out of the line for me. I really wanted to make my connecting flight, but I didn't expect them to pull the person in "my" seat on the flight 30 minutes later out to let me sit. Meanwhile, I'm knee-deep in Benchys and little 20mm cubes, so it's not like I've been idled this entire time.
I've generally been avoiding responding on these threads, but when the petulant profanity-laced posts pop up, it riles. (Not you corey.)
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
I want a PEI sheet, but I am holding off to order a smooth PC and Textured PC with it. I want to make the $50 shipping worth it.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
That is correct except you left "... after providing compensation to the tune of $45" off. They didn't just say "we'll get back to you".
You seem to be forgetting that the people who are ordering them now are getting the PC sheet, a $25 value at retail; the retail cost of the spring steel sheet is $30 which is a difference of $5. They provided a $10 voucher. That is a total of $15, even if you double that to cover the cost of free shipping, that's $30, which is 2/3 of what your estimate is. Not to mention that the $10 voucher doesn't actually cost them $10, nor does the spring steel sheet cost them $30 each, it just cuts into the margin. I do not at all begrudge them turning a profit, but seeing as to get the voucher you need to have already purchased a printer or kit, I can't say for sure, but they've likely got a fairly respectable margin to cut into there.
So yeah, I really want my PC sheet. I wanted my coconut shrimp, but didn't expect them to shove other people out of the line for me. I really wanted to make my connecting flight, but I didn't expect them to pull the person in "my" seat on the flight 30 minutes later out to let me sit.
You, and everyone else who intends to buy the PC sheet are the people being shoved out of the line, or the people being pulled out of the the seat. Until they close that lead time and/or reach whatever amount of stock they want to have on the side to start selling them separately, literally every new PC sheet order made is increasing the time before they're for sale at least slightly.
I want a PEI sheet, but I am holding off to order a smooth PC and Textured PC with it. I want to make the $50 shipping worth it.
Just FYI, from the latest update to the blog by JP about 3.4.0
...we also decided to step away from the plans regarding the production of glossy powder-coated sheets. Maybe we’ll come back to them sometime in the future.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
[...] You seem to be forgetting that the people who are ordering them now are getting the PC sheet, a $25 value at retail; the retail cost of the spring steel sheet is $30 which is a difference of $5. They provided a $10 voucher. That is a total of $15, even if you double that to cover the cost of free shipping, that's $30, which is 2/3 of what your estimate is.
It depends on what shipping options are selected, which seem to vary considerably in price. The point being that Prusa is providing a lot to compensate us for not getting the PC bed. If you don't order a thing, they've compensated you the $15. If you order a PC sheet, it's $15 plus whatever ungodly shipping rate is applied (which is outside Prusa's control).
Not to mention that the $10 voucher doesn't actually cost them $10, nor does the spring steel sheet cost them $30 each, it just cuts into the margin. I do not at all begrudge them turning a profit, but seeing as to get the voucher you need to have already purchased a printer or kit, I can't say for sure, but they've likely got a fairly respectable margin to cut into there.
It's still costing them, and you're getting that value. The point being that anybody who ordered early specifying the PC bed and getting the double-sided PEI sticker sheet instead was compensated. The amount isn't really the point. May of the complaints make it sound like nothing was received.
[...] You, and everyone else who intends to buy the PC sheet are the people being shoved out of the line, or the people being pulled out of the the seat. Until they close that lead time and/or reach whatever amount of stock they want to have on the side to start selling them separately, literally every new PC sheet order made is increasing the time before they're for sale at least slightly.
Nope. We're the ones who went through the buffet when an option wasn't available. It happens all the time in retail (and buffets). "Not today, but here's something else." Use the airline example if you prefer. If my flight is cancelled, I've paid but they don't go yanking people off the next flight to the same destination. They may compensate me, they'll put me on another flight as space is available. They'll probably lose my luggage to add insult to injury. Hell, Tesla just withdrew a bunch of color options. Prusa's thrown in that $15+whatever-you-like shipping value plus got me there (the included sheet), just without an option I wanted.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
It depends on what shipping options are selected, which seem to vary considerably in price. The point being that Prusa is providing a lot to compensate us for not getting the PC bed. If you don't order a thing, they've compensated you the $15. If you order a PC sheet, it's $15 plus whatever ungodly shipping rate is applied (which is outside Prusa's control)
Yes, my point is that you were saying $45. However, I don't agree that they've compensated you $15 if you don't order anything. If you got a spring steel sheet that you didn't want, the fact it's $5 more is meaningless because you still didn't get the PC. Saying that makes the assumption that the spring steel sheet is $5 more because it's worth $5 more and not because it costs more to manufacture.
It's still costing them, and you're getting that value. The point being that anybody who ordered early specifying the PC bed and getting the double-sided PEI sticker sheet instead was compensated. The amount isn't really the point. May of the complaints make it sound like nothing was received.
My response about the actual value was in response to your implication that it was $45. And of course people are complaining, someone would always complain. However, I and apparently many people here think that it's a reasonable complaint that we all have to wait for an additional month when people who order a new printer today might very well get one before the month is out.
You seem to missing what my problem (personally) with this is. I generally agree with your assessment that it's a pretty good deal (financially). It's been a ridiculous and unreasonable amount of time but that isn't really their fault*. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'd be fine if that were the end of it. For me it's not about the price, it's just about the customer service aspect.
Nope. We're the ones who went through the buffet when an option wasn't available. It happens all the time in retail (and buffets). "Not today, but here's something else." Use the airline example if you prefer. If my flight is cancelled, I've paid but they don't go yanking people off the next flight to the same destination. They may compensate me, they'll put me on another flight as space is available. They'll probably lose my luggage to add insult to injury. Hell, Tesla just withdrew a bunch of color options. Prusa's thrown in that $15+whatever-you-like shipping value plus got me there (the included sheet), just without an option I wanted.
It's sort of like the chef at the buffet said "Oh I'm sorry, we'll have some more in one hour, here's a discount." and then we find ourselves at the buffet six hours later and the wait staff has decided to intentionally bar all of us from actually getting at the thing we've been waiting hours for while people who walked up in the last 15 minutes are being brought right up to it.
What I find legitimately insulting and is completely and totally in their control is their decision to send them out with new orders meanwhile everyone who has already been waiting months is asked to wait another month is asinine.
Don't forget that at some point, someone at prusa research looked at the incoming numbers of the sheets, decided that the production problems were resolved enough to start selling them, and then made the conscious and intentional decision that incoming orders should be prioritized over everyone else, because even though they told us "next month" around seven times they had bought our patience with $10, a $5 "upgrade" and free shipping (on something that wouldn't need to be shipped if there hadn't been a problem) enough that they could have us wait another month. I seriously hope that they actually have the problem sorted because if they don't as soon as they open up, they're gonna sell out and people are going to be extremely mad when they're told "production problems please wait a month"
*I am really starting to take issue with them shifting the blame on this. Is it their fault? No. But it did stop them from delivering a feature complete product, a feature that was talked up prior to release. I understand they're a small company, but if they can't even be bothered to come into the forums and talk to the people who have all paid at least $750 for their products who are upset with this, I'm not going to give them that slack. If a larger company fails to deliver a complete product, even if it's due to a problem with one of the suppliers of a certain part, they'd still catch flak for it.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
It is a sad state of affairs. Hopefully, they do now say it is going to be delayed again in another month.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
..... Use the airline example if you prefer. If my flight is cancelled, I've paid but they don't go yanking people off the next flight to the same destination. They may compensate me, they'll put me on another flight as space is available. They'll probably lose my luggage to add insult to injury. Hell, Tesla just withdrew a bunch of color options. Prusa's thrown in that $15+whatever-you-like shipping value plus got me there (the included sheet), just without an option I wanted.
So it's like I booked a Hawaiian vacation with first class seats. I get to the airport and am told "sorry we overbooked and all the first class seats are taken, you can either take a refund, wait for a later flight that could be days or months away, we're just not sure, or accept our apologies and take a voucher for a discount future flight, (availability to be determined by the airline) and take a coach seat and still get your vacation." I take the voucher and sit in the last row for the flight because it's not worth sacrificing the entire vacation over one part of the trip. Then on the way back I'm standing in line to check my bags watch the guy in front of me book a first class seat on my return flight while I'm looking at the assigned coach seat on my boarding pass. But hey I did get the voucher and had my Hawaiian vacation so why bi^(h? Then a year after the trip I try to book a flight with the discount voucher and am told I can't book the flight using the voucher until a future date that is still TBD but I can book at full fare if I wish. (I assume I can still purchase a new MK3 and get the textured sheet with a 3 week lead time)
Not that I really give a damn about not having a powder coated sheet as this thing is really just a hobby but I'm not sure I agree with how it's currently being handled. FWIW I ordered my printer 10/15/17.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
..... Use the airline example if you prefer. [snip]
So it's like I booked a Hawaiian vacation with first class seats. [snip]
Guys I don't know it you'll ever get your PC PEI sheets, but make sure you get writing credits for the next Adam Sandler's movie!
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
..... Use the airline example if you prefer. [snip]
So it's like I booked a Hawaiian vacation with first class seats. [snip]
Guys I don't know it you'll ever get your PC PEI sheets, but make sure you get writing credits for the next Adam Sandler's movie!
Yeah, I know my writing is atrocious... I avoided anything related to liberal arts while in college.
As an aside, bobstro's write up in "are you printing with 100% speed" is outstanding! Though I may disagree with him on this subject, I learned a lot from his writeup here.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
Guys I don't know it you'll ever get your PC PEI sheets, but make sure you get writing credits for the next Adam Sandler's movie!
Yeah, I know my writing is atrocious... I avoided anything related to liberal arts while in college.
Quite the contrary, I did find your story in two parts quite entertaining, although the vacation analogy was taken a bit too far in the end, IMHO 🙂
Sorry for the diversion, but I feel like the mood needs some lightening in here...
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
Well... Hang on. Prusa got you where you're going. You've got everything but the texture. So I say more like you were in Business class and looking forward to the high-tech lay-flat seats in the 777, but got shifted to slightly more expensive First Class on a later flight without the lay-flat seats. You got something more expensive, you got where you wanted to go as quickly as they could get you there but it wasn't the experience for the 1st leg of your trip you were looking forward to when you booked. They gave you a 40% discount voucher for your next flight. And free baggage (no shipping).
[...] So it's like I booked a Hawaiian vacation with first class seats. I get to the airport and am told "sorry we overbooked and all the first class seats are taken, you can either take a refund, wait for a later flight that could be days or months away, we're just not sure, or accept our apologies and take a voucher for a discount future flight, (availability to be determined by the airline) and take a coach seat and still get your vacation."
In all this, remember that you weren't stranded. You could print on a removable flex steel sheet. It just lacked the texture. Everything else was identical.
And yes, analogies get silly pretty quick.
[...] Not that I really give a damn about not having a powder coated sheet as this thing is really just a hobby but I'm not sure I agree with how it's currently being handled. FWIW I ordered my printer 10/15/17.
I don't think it's the kind of thing you agree with. There is precedent though. In Prusa's mind, they compensated those of us who were affected. We might wish for more, but those were the terms. Legally and in business terms, the transaction is completed. Equitably I think. I'd feed a bit entitled still demanding special treatment having accepted the terms (keeping and using the printer). I took them up on the next flight, it's a bit late to be demanding the lay-flat seats.
FWIW - I was a 1st week Jan 18 order.
It's an issue. It sucks. I just think some of the posts about the horrible experience are a bit petulant in tone. It's not that I wasn't provided a solution. It's not that I'll never get a PC sheet. It's that someone else got one before me! I honestly don't get it. It's not enough in my mind to cancel out all of the excellent interaction I've had with Prusa otherwise. Maybe drop a star, go from 100% would buy again to 90%. To call them a 0 though? Hmm. Starts to sound like trolling for a freebie.
Again, I wouldn't bother posting but the recent profanity-laden post bugged me.
Interestingly, I'm getting really fond of the smooth texture sheet now that I've gotten a pretty good handle on my 1st layers. I rely on the appearance to gauge how well I've got things calibrated. I do want a PC bed, but it's not at the top of my list anymore.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
[...] Guys I don't know it you'll ever get your PC PEI sheets, but make sure you get writing credits for the next Adam Sandler's movie!
I used to do technical training way back when (Novell NetWare!) and we'd get into analogies using FedEx as a model to describe networking. At some point, it would always go off the rails. Analogies break down pretty quick, but we did start having fun trying to come up with the worst analogy ever.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
[...] Sorry for the diversion, but I feel like the mood needs some lightening in here...
I've got my tongue planted firmly in my cheek on this one. In an ideal world, we'd have everything worked out. My Mk3 cost me about half what I expected to pay when I 1st started tracking 3D printer, so I'm still way up on the "totally worth it" meter.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
I'm using those pages as a brain dump for all the tidbits I'm picking up along the way. Glad you found it useful. There's not a Prusa wiki anywhere that I'm missing, is there? I'd be happy to contribute content if there is one.
[...] As an aside, bobstro's write up in "are you printing with 100% speed" is outstanding! Though I may disagree with him on this subject, I learned a lot from his writeup here.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
........
It's an issue. It sucks. I just think some of the posts about the horrible experience are a bit petulant in tone. It's not that I wasn't provided a solution. It's not that I'll never get a PC sheet. It's that someone else got one before me! I honestly don't get it. It's not enough in my mind to cancel out all of the excellent interaction I've had with Prusa otherwise. Maybe drop a star, go from 100% would buy again to 90%. To call them a 0 though? Hmm. Starts to sound like trolling for a freebie.
.....
I've been through a couple of different sheets, BuildTak and the textured sheet from Ebay and always come back to the smooth PEI as it works best. The textured sheet from Ebay is really nice but the surface isn't flat enough and it exacerbates my somewhat problematic first layers in spots... Aesthetically my preference is the textured sheet without a doubt.
Prusa's handling of this isn't a deal breaker for me either but I also won't pre order the MMU2 or any other unit from them until they're shipping and are being delivered as advertised.
Also, I had a $3k budget for my first printer and beat that handily when I purchased the MK3 so I can't complain there. Now I'm considering spending the excess and building a Voron V2.1 for the fun of it or if the e3D Toolchanger comes out I really don't think I'll be able to resist buying one.
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
BTW 3D tool-changer can be found here https://e3d-online.com/blog/?p=885
Re: Powder Coated PEI Sheets: NOW SHIPPING
I want a PEI sheet, but I am holding off to order a smooth PC and Textured PC with it. I want to make the $50 shipping worth it.
Me too, ill be ordering both at the same time. Well if they ever get around to remembering us first beta testers and make them available for sale.