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michael.r52
(@michael-r52)
Eminent Member
Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

I would like to hear thoughts on using the textured sheets. Please keeps comments on availability , vouchers, dates, receiving act. on the other thread, thanks.

Some questions:
1. Does the live Z need to be adjusted when swithing between sheets.
2. Do I need to change any other print settings.
3. Does PLA or PETG make any difference in the textured look?
4. Other than the texture is there supposed to be any differences in sheets like adhesion?

Posted : 15/04/2019 7:54 pm
DustinJay
(@dustinjay)
Active Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

Strictly based on my personal experience:

1) Yes, the textured sheet is much thinner than the standard sheet.
2) No, I have not.
3) Not that I have noticed.
4) There is not supposed to be a difference, but I get significantly better adhesion with the standard flat PEI sheet. YMMV

Posted : 15/04/2019 8:12 pm
michael.r52
(@michael-r52)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

thanks

Posted : 15/04/2019 8:45 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

I have multiple PEI sheets and a couple Powder coated and TXT sheets. Each has a slightly different live Z.

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 15/04/2019 9:11 pm
Sembazuru
(@sembazuru)
Prominent Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use


I have multiple PEI sheets and a couple Powder coated and TXT sheets. Each has a slightly different live Z.

Do you calibrate the Z value each time, or do you have a look-up table near your printer where you have your previously found Z values for each sheet surface?

If the latter, how do you identify one side from the other? Any method that I can think of marking my sheet sides will be removed by any one of the regular maintenance cleaners that I use... I'm looking for a good solution.

And maybe if anyone from Prusa is paying attention, I'd like to petition them when they are applying graphics to the sheets that they make to mark the sides slightly differently. (A and B sides, 1 and 2 sides, Fred and Barney sides, Thelma and Louise sides, etc...)

See my (limited) designs on:
PrusaPrinters - https://www.prusaprinters.org/social/1448-sembazuru/prints
Thingiverse - https://www.thingiverse.com/Sembazuru/designs...
Posted : 15/04/2019 10:49 pm
laurel.w liked
JBinFL
(@jbinfl)
Reputable Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

Echoing the above posters

1. Does the live Z need to be adjusted when swithing between sheets. - YES - for example (.512) vs (.522) are two of my sheets, so not much at all.
2. Do I need to change any other print settings. - Not that I know of or have done
3. Does PLA or PETG make any difference in the textured look? NO
4. Other than the texture is there supposed to be any differences in sheets like adhesion? Not that I have noticed.

I have two THEE KKIINNGG sheets in addition to my Prusa PC sheet, just got a Prusa PEI steel sheet, but have not used it yet. It is much thicker than the PC sheets.

I have a table taped to my enclosure plexiglass. I get the base live z with the PC sheet and that is the sheet I use whenever I redo or reset the calibrations and then adjust to the others. I use a small square of painters tape that I made into a tab and stuck to the edge of all the sheets, like the stick on tabs you can get for file folders and numbered the sheets and include a side a and b with a sharpie pen.

The blue painters tape tabs have held up well, no effect from the heat of the heatbed or washing with dish soap for months. It is only on maybe a 1/4 inch of the edge of the sheet and is probably 3/8 of an inch by 3/8 of an inch hangover. works pretty well and is a handy grab point for dish soap washes.

Strange women, laying in ponds, distributing swords, is hardly a basis for a system of governance!...
Posted : 16/04/2019 2:08 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use



I have multiple PEI sheets and a couple Powder coated and TXT sheets. Each has a slightly different live Z.

Do you calibrate the Z value each time, or do you have a look-up table near your printer where you have your previously found Z values for each sheet surface?

If the latter, how do you identify one side from the other? Any method that I can think of marking my sheet sides will be removed by any one of the regular maintenance cleaners that I use... I'm looking for a good solution.

And maybe if anyone from Prusa is paying attention, I'd like to petition them when they are applying graphics to the sheets that they make to mark the sides slightly differently. (A and B sides, 1 and 2 sides, Fred and Barney sides, Thelma and Louise sides, etc...)

I have a PEI sheet for each type of filament. I have written in the top right corner with permanent marker - ABS, PETG, PLA, TPU.

I have done the same with the powder coated sheets, but I have reserved a side per filament.

Side to side, they are the same to me. Sheet to sheet, there is some varibility.

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 16/04/2019 2:40 am
Chocki
(@chocki)
Prominent Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

I have 3 sheets.

The original from PRUSA is the textured PEI, this is my PETG printing sheet and what I have been using up till now for setting the live-z but after a few head crashes i no longer use this as the reference initial calibration sheet, as up until now, these textured PEI sheets seem rarer than hens teeth! and I don't want to damage it anymore.
So now I also have two FYSETC spring steel sheets, one with the supplied 0.2mm PEI sheet and this is what I use for live-z setting, and another sheet with a black Buildtak sheet stuck to it which I use for polycarbonate printing.
I have carried out live-z calibration on all the sheets and have an offset note for each sheet against the one I use for initial live-z calibration which I have to do every time I swap nozzles, a right PITA if I may say so. I have a skelestruder extruder which has an adjustable PINDA height, so at least this makes it a little easier.

Normal people believe that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain’t broke, it doesn’t have enough features yet....
Posted : 16/04/2019 7:12 am
JBinFL
(@jbinfl)
Reputable Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use


I use a small square of painters tape that I made into a tab and stuck to the edge of all the sheets, like the stick on tabs you can get for file folders and numbered the sheets and include a side a and b with a sharpie pen.

The blue painters tape tabs have held up well, no effect from the heat of the heatbed or washing with dish soap for months. It is only on maybe a 1/4 inch of the edge of the sheet and is probably 3/8 of an inch by 3/8 of an inch hangover. works pretty well and is a handy grab point for dish soap washes.

Sorry, thought I attached a picture of my high speed painter tape tabs....

Strange women, laying in ponds, distributing swords, is hardly a basis for a system of governance!...
Posted : 18/04/2019 1:37 am
laurel.w liked
matthew.m63
(@matthew-m63)
Trusted Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

THANK you for posting this. I was going to buy the chinese powder coated sheets. Its clear that the Kiinngg sheets are not the same as the chinese ones.

I am sure he gets them from China, but not from FYNS

I am having a LOT of success with the KIINNGG powder coat sheets.

Posted : 18/04/2019 5:05 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use


[...] I use a small square of painters tape that I made into a tab and stuck to the edge of all the sheets, like the stick on tabs you can get for file folders and numbered the sheets and include a side a and b with a sharpie pen.

The blue painters tape tabs have held up well, no effect from the heat of the heatbed or washing with dish soap for months. It is only on maybe a 1/4 inch of the edge of the sheet and is probably 3/8 of an inch by 3/8 of an inch hangover. works pretty well and is a handy grab point for dish soap washes.
Great idea, thanks!

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 18/04/2019 6:56 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

That is a great idea. The sharpie comes off with IPA.

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 18/04/2019 7:07 pm
gdo
 gdo
(@gdo)
Moderator
Re: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

After receiving my powder coated sheet recently, I had a pretty difficult time trying to make PETG work. Initially, nothing would really stick to the bed. The few objects which didn't get wiped away had a horrible first layer structure and finish with gaps, loose filament strands and the like.

I first scrubbed the sheet in dishwasher soap water, followed by cleaning with acetone. This didn't have much effect, but surely didn't hurt either.

Inspired by other suggestions in the forum, I then proceeded with experimenting with Live-Z values. At first, this didn't help much either. That is, until I decided to reduce the Live-Z value in really drastic increments. Finally, things started to come together, the part started to stick and the sheet texture started to show in the first layer finish. Still, there were some tiny holes and gaps. I reduced Live-Z further until these finally disappeared and I got a surface finish which was virtually identical to my benchmark – the "B7 extruder cover" printed by Prusa in a former MMU2 kit.

The Live-Z value for my smooth spring steel sheet was -0.580 mm. The final value I settled on for the powder coated sheet was -0.850 mm. That's a whopping 0.270 mm difference – much more, I think, than other users had experienced.

See photos below – first one shows the initial attempt with standard (spring steel sheet) settings, second one shows the final result with significantly reduced Live-Z.

Posted : 23/04/2019 12:14 am
phil.s4
(@phil-s4)
Active Member
RE: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

My non-powder coated sheet has a Live-Z value of -0.75 mm.  The powder coated one is -1.00 mm.  So a delta of 0.25 mm.  As for adhesion, it seems like things are well stuck when the bed is hot.  It's interesting, though, that once it cools down to maybe 60 deg C it pops loose.  This is with ABS.  Sometimes I can hear it cracking loose.  That makes me think it's not adhering as well since the non-powder coated sheet didn't do that but it's been great having it pop loose that way and after a dozen prints or so I've never had anything come loose during a print.

Posted : 25/04/2019 3:28 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
RE: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use
Posted by: phil.s4

My non-powder coated sheet has a Live-Z value of -0.75 mm.  The powder coated one is -1.00 mm.  So a delta of 0.25 mm.  As for adhesion, it seems like things are well stuck when the bed is hot.  It's interesting, though, that once it cools down to maybe 60 deg C it pops loose.  This is with ABS.  Sometimes I can hear it cracking loose.  That makes me think it's not adhering as well since the non-powder coated sheet didn't do that but it's been great having it pop loose that way and after a dozen prints or so I've never had anything come loose during a print.

That is the expected performance.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 25/04/2019 9:45 am
Vojtěch
(@vojtech-3)
Honorable Member
RE: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

By the way, Ultem (PEI) powder coated steel sheets are now available from Funssor on Aliexpress for much cheaper than from TheKkiinngg. I haven't purchased one (I have TheKkiinngg v4), but I'd be very curious if they are any better or worse. I have significantly worse bed adhesion with TheKkiinngg than with Prusa smooth PEI, which is actually an improvement for PETG printing, although for PLA it will probably suck.

Also, I now have a Textit (cotton/phenolic resin, aka Tufnol Whale aka Garolite LE) steel sheet, too, for printing  Nylon.

Each of these has a different live Z value. So far I use a felt pen to write down the values on the sheets, but what's annoying is when I do maintenance on the printer and move the inductive probe, I need to change the values on all of them. I think I'll create different printer profiles for each and add a Z offset there ...

Posted : 26/04/2019 8:41 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
RE: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use
Posted by: vojtěch.p6

By the way, Ultem (PEI) powder coated steel sheets are now available from Funssor on Aliexpress for much cheaper than from TheKkiinngg. I haven't purchased one (I have TheKkiinngg v4), but I'd be very curious if they are any better or worse. I have significantly worse bed adhesion with TheKkiinngg than with Prusa smooth PEI, which is actually an improvement for PETG printing, although for PLA it will probably suck.

Also, I now have a Textit (cotton/phenolic resin, aka Tufnol Whale aka Garolite LE) steel sheet, too, for printing  Nylon.

Each of these has a different live Z value. So far I use a felt pen to write down the values on the sheets, but what's annoying is when I do maintenance on the printer and move the inductive probe, I need to change the values on all of them. I think I'll create different printer profiles for each and add a Z offset there ...

That depends on your definition of "much Cheaper".  You can get the King for $40 if you search around (plus shipping).  The cheapest you can get the Funssor is $32-34.  It is a little riskier to order from China than Canada.  I order one and will let you know when and if it arrives.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 27/04/2019 1:03 am
Vojtěch
(@vojtech-3)
Honorable Member
RE: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use
Posted by: charles.h13

That depends on your definition of "much Cheaper".  You can get the King for $40 if you search around (plus shipping).  The cheapest you can get the Funssor is $32-34.  It is a little riskier to order from China than Canada.  I order one and will let you know when and if it arrives.  

I couldn't find TheKkiinngg cheaper than $50 + $30 shipping + possibly VAT on import. I live in Prague, actually pretty close to the Prusa offices. So the total nears $100. The Funssor is then one third of that. For me, much cheaper. But yes, perhaps if you're in the US, the difference isn't as large.

Posted : 27/04/2019 6:54 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
RE: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

We will find out how good the Chinese one is soon.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 27/04/2019 11:09 am
rkayakr
(@rkayakr)
Trusted Member
RE: Powder coated PEI Sheet Use

Going from a Prusa PEI sheet to Prusa powder coated my Live-Z changed slightly, from -1.25 to -1.30.

Posted : 29/04/2019 12:44 am
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