Heatbreak & Extruder kit upgrade: What are the changes needed to avoid problems?
 
Notifications
Clear all

Heatbreak & Extruder kit upgrade: What are the changes needed to avoid problems?  

  RSS
ratolloko
(@ratolloko)
Eminent Member
Heatbreak & Extruder kit upgrade: What are the changes needed to avoid problems?

Hi guys,

I am getting a Prusa Mini+ within the following weeks and I am having some problems understanding some "must-have" upgrades.

  1. Triangle Lab heartbreak: This is to solve the stock PTFE tube which will melt by nature causing coggled nozzle down the track. On my current Ender to avoid that, I have a small piece of Capricorn PTFE tube within the heartbreak which support up to 260-degree Celsius and it is stronger than the stock one which is also used by Prusa. This is called "CHEP hotend fix" on YouTube.
    Back to the problem. I saw a post here where you need to change the gcode with the new heatbreak or the printing will be a failure.
    If I got it right, it requires you to run this code BEFORE each printing either via adding this to your slicer or printing the gcode with these lines.
    M301 P13.54 I0.98 D46.58 ; Bondtech heatbreak
    M117 New PID loaded
    M73 P100 R0

     

  2. Triangle Lab Extruder: This solves the stock extruder issues either design flaw and other issues related. It is unclear what is needed to adjust after installing it.

 

For the matter and to make it easier for you to understand, when you make such a change on my Ender, I do need to adjust the e-stepper or the one responsible for feeding the filament within the system. By default it is set to 93mm/s, I had to change it to 100.7mm/s, save it that is it.
No gcode needed, just a firmware value change and that is it but with Prusa, things seem to be a lot different.

I would love someone to clarify these 2 subjects to me. I am moving to a Prusa to stop this tweaking around with my current printer and the last thing I want after spending 2x more is to have to do tweaking around.

Please, don't take me wrong. Mini+ will work out of the box but down the track, all hell will break loose regarding extruder/heatbreak so I prefer to install these upgrades during the assembling and forget about life.

Thanks a lot for any information.

 

Posted : 30/07/2021 1:13 am
ratolloko
(@ratolloko)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
I think I got it

After reading here and there and more lost than onion in fruits salad, I found the misunderstanding:

  • Hotbreak: After upgrading it and because of a firmware change on Prusa side, I need to add this to PrusaSlicer:
    M301 P13.54 I0.98 D46.58 ; Bondtech heatbreak
  • Extruder Kit: After upgrading it, because of a firmware change on Prusa side and because the grip on the filament is greater, I need to add this to PrusaSlicer before intro:
    M92 E415
    M500

But not everything is a flower. Some users do take advantage of this while others need to go back to the stock one because they started having more problems with the upgrade than without it. I guess this happens because the heatbreak diameter changes which might work and might not with different printers.

I am really "no happy" that you need to add gcode to get things to work properly. It doesn't make sense to me coming from an Ender world where you just make the adjustments, save and that is all. No gcode tweaking.

I am going forward with the bond tech/triangle lab dual extruder for sure, being able to print faster without having tons of headaches is amazing.
But for the heatbreak, I am sticking with the solution I currently use, swap the stock PTFE tube with a Capricorn PTFE tube.

For what I need it works 100%, I've printed PAL+, TPU and I'm about to try PETG which requires the same temp as the TPU I have. My fan housing was printed in PLA + nozzle silicone socks so I know it works well and has to work as good as with Mini+

I will keep this post in case the gcode above is wrong and to get rid of this "Awaiting moderation" 🙂

Posted : 30/07/2021 5:23 am
fuchsr
(@fuchsr)
Noble Member

@ratolloko

I have done the Trianglelab extruder upgrade (which is a clone of the Bondtech dual drive extruder). It's the only modification I wholeheartedly recommend. Before that, I had to do frequent adjustments to the idler screw for different filaments, since installing it, not a single one. It just works.

And making it work is as simple as adding the M92 E415 to the startup gcode in prusaslicer. The M500 is actually superfluous as you can't write estep or PID values back to the Mini's EEPROM. Yes, it does affect the filament loading process (more than one purge required to load the filament because esteps are not adjusted at that point), but that's a small price to pay. Currently, the only other option is to modify the firmware, thus breaking the warranty (see https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy/issues/767). There's talk that newer firmware versions will support storing of e-steps, but it hasn't materialized yet. Still, I'm super happy with the extruder upgrade, and an extra couple of purges to load filament is really not an issue. Whether you can print faster as you're hoping for or not, no idea. I'm not pushing speed. If needed, I usually switch to a larger nozzle.

As far as the heat break is concerned, a bought some Bondtech heat breaks after reading about the issues you mentioned, but never installed them on my machines. Everything has worked just fine with the stock heat breaks for months of heavy print loads. While there is no doubt that users are experiencing issues with the heat break, it's not clear to me what the true incidence rate is as of course forums like this are heavily biased toward users that are seeing problems and are looking for help. So, I concur with your strategy of sticking with stock, and only replace it when actual issues arise. 

Most recently I switched one Mini to a Dragon (standard flow) hot end. The main reason being that it facilitates one-handed nozzle change. I swap nozzles all the time, and unlike the Mk3S, the Mini for some reasons seems to give me frequent thermal runaway errors when I change nozzles.  I should also be able to print faster with it but that's not a prime concern of mine, so I haven't pushed it. I haven't noticed any issues with it, all it requires is adding PID tuning values to the startup gcode because, again, the Mini can't save them to EEPROM.

I've made quite a few other mods/additions but none I'd consider as demonstrably relevant as the extruder upgrade:

Posted : 30/07/2021 12:12 pm
ratolloko
(@ratolloko)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
Legend

 

Posted by: @fuchsr

@ratolloko

I have done the Trianglelab extruder upgrade (which is a clone of the Bondtech dual drive extruder). It's the only modification I wholeheartedly recommend. Before that, I had to do frequent adjustments to the idler screw for different filaments, since installing it, not a single one. It just works.

And making it work is as simple as adding the M92 E415 to the startup gcode in prusaslicer. The M500 is actually superfluous as you can't write estep or PID values back to the Mini's EEPROM. Yes, it does affect the filament loading process (more than one purge required to load the filament because esteps are not adjusted at that point), but that's a small price to pay. Currently, the only other option is to modify the firmware, thus breaking the warranty (see https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy/issues/767). There's talk that newer firmware versions will support storing of e-steps, but it hasn't materialized yet. Still, I'm super happy with the extruder upgrade, and an extra couple of purges to load filament is really not an issue. Whether you can print faster as you're hoping for or not, no idea. I'm not pushing speed. If needed, I usually switch to a larger nozzle.

As far as the heat break is concerned, a bought some Bondtech heat breaks after reading about the issues you mentioned, but never installed them on my machines. Everything has worked just fine with the stock heat breaks for months of heavy print loads. While there is no doubt that users are experiencing issues with the heat break, it's not clear to me what the true incidence rate is as of course forums like this are heavily biased toward users that are seeing problems and are looking for help. So, I concur with your strategy of sticking with stock, and only replace it when actual issues arise. 

Most recently I switched one Mini to a Dragon (standard flow) hot end. The main reason being that it facilitates one-handed nozzle change. I swap nozzles all the time, and unlike the Mk3S, the Mini for some reasons seems to give me frequent thermal runaway errors when I change nozzles.  I should also be able to print faster with it but that's not a prime concern of mine, so I haven't pushed it. I haven't noticed any issues with it, all it requires is adding PID tuning values to the startup gcode because, again, the Mini can't save them to EEPROM.

I've made quite a few other mods/additions but none I'd consider as demonstrably relevant as the extruder upgrade:

Thanks a lot for all the information 🙂

With my current Ender, I've had all the adventures you can think of hahaha but never a nozzle coggled thanks to the Capricorn fix but I've had enough tweaking.

Just like you mentioned, you might never have the problem or you might. I leave the printer doing its things overnight so I don't wanna make up next morning with the nozzle looking like a tree hahahaha so why I wanna have peace of mind like I've with my current Ender printing for like 4 days.

I'm still willing to try the Capricorn solution. No gcode should be needed.

I don't need anything crazy, just a printer that doesn't require unlimited tweaking and I can trust.

Thank you so much again for all the info. I bookmarked all the links for the "after"

Cheers

Posted : 30/07/2021 2:38 pm
Antti
(@antti)
Eminent Member
Ptfe cutter

Hey, can you recommend a PTFE cutter model for cutting the tube inside the stock heatbreak? I found some from prusaprinters, but they used an US standard razor blade which is not available here.

I’ve got a bondtech heatbreak and some capricorn handy, but I’m leaning towards just replacing the tube instead of the heatbreak. 

Posted : 30/07/2021 4:20 pm
fuchsr
(@fuchsr)
Noble Member

My cutter came with the capricorn PTFE I bought off Amazon.

Posted : 30/07/2021 4:52 pm
BogdanH
(@bogdanh)
Honorable Member
RE: Heatbreak & Extruder kit upgrade: What are the changes needed to avoid problems?

As @fichsr mentioned, there are different experiences with Mini, so what's good for me might not necessary apply to others. In that sense, here's my opinion...
After making some research before purchasing Mini, I decided to upgrade Bondtech heatbreak & extruder during the assembly:

heatbreak -I recommend it to upgrade in case you plan to switch between filament types. Fact is, PTFE tube shrinks at high (PTFE, ASA...) temperatures and to avoid clogs (and replacing PTFE tube inside heatbreak), one just need to upgrade. And at least in my theory, hotend temperature is easier to maintain, because there's much less heat running toward coldend -probably the reason why PID values need to be changed.
Btw. with upgrade heatbreak, there's no need to use Capricorn tube inside, because temperature there is much lower than that's the case with original heatbreak.
At first I though to keep original heatbreak and only put Capricorn tube inside. But Capricorn tube is quite expensive and more important, it will probably shrink too if using high temperature filaments (ASA, ABS,...).

extruder -well, what to say.. original extruder is as basic as it can be and I'm not surprised many struggle to find proper idler tension. Not to mention cleaning the filament residue that collects inside extruder.
Yes, double gear extruder upgrade is quite expensive, so one should think long term (if it's worth or not). And keep in mind that there are two main things that influence print quality: hotend & extruder.

new g-code -to keep the warranty, one can either load new g-code after turning printer on, or modify start g-code in prusa slicer (I prefer 1st option in this case). The thing is, none of these two solutions is "comfortable"... it just becomes annoying over the time -at least that was in my case.
Because of that, I decided to ditch warranty (I have opinion about Prusa in this regard) and loaded modified firmware. I think that's how it should be: turn printer on and start printing.

Just sharing my opinion

[Mini+] [MK3S+BEAR]...
Posted : 30/07/2021 4:59 pm
ratolloko
(@ratolloko)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
Capricorn cut tool

 

Posted by: @antti

Hey, can you recommend a PTFE cutter model for cutting the tube inside the stock heatbreak? I found some from prusaprinters, but they used an US standard razor blade which is not available here.

I’ve got a bondtech heatbreak and some capricorn handy, but I’m leaning towards just replacing the tube instead of the heatbreak. 

I use the one that comes with the Capricorn, it cuts life hell hahaha

And yes, I'm leaning towards the Capricorn solution, I use it and it made the retractions more peaceful and support up to 260. I don't need all of that. TPU and PETG filament available here requires 230 celsius degree as medium temp and no less important, no coggled nozzle which could occur down the track with the stock on my Ender as well.

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B085VGC1VC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_GG70MN9DYE5EJ8K0TT4X

Posted : 30/07/2021 5:34 pm
ratolloko
(@ratolloko)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
Under 230c

 

Posted by: @bogdanh

As @fichsr mentioned, there are different experiences with Mini, so what's good for me might not necessary apply to others. In that sense, here's my opinion...
After making some research before purchasing Mini, I decided to upgrade Bondtech heatbreak & extruder during the assembly:

heatbreak -I recommend it to upgrade in case you plan to switch between filament types. Fact is, PTFE tube shrinks at high (PTFE, ASA...) temperatures and to avoid clogs (and replacing PTFE tube inside heatbreak), one just need to upgrade. And at least in my theory, hotend temperature is easier to maintain, because there's much less heat running toward coldend -probably the reason why PID values need to be changed.
Btw. with upgrade heatbreak, there's no need to use Capricorn tube inside, because temperature there is much lower than that's the case with original heatbreak.
At first I though to keep original heatbreak and only put Capricorn tube inside. But Capricorn tube is quite expensive and more important, it will probably shrink too if using high temperature filaments (ASA, ABS,...).

extruder -well, what to say.. original extruder is as basic as it can be and I'm not surprised many struggle to find proper idler tension. Not to mention cleaning the filament residue that collects inside extruder.
Yes, double gear extruder upgrade is quite expensive, so one should think long term (if it's worth or not). And keep in mind that there are two main things that influence print quality: hotend & extruder.

new g-code -to keep the warranty, one can either load new g-code after turning printer on, or modify start g-code in prusa slicer (I prefer 1st option in this case). The thing is, none of these two solutions is "comfortable"... it just becomes annoying over the time -at least that was in my case.
Because of that, I decided to ditch warranty (I have opinion about Prusa in this regard) and loaded modified firmware. I think that's how it should be: turn printer on and start printing.

Just sharing my opinion

Thanks for sharing and I couldn't agree more with you regarding the firmware. It's like Android vs Apple, OPNSense vs pfSense. I'm from the IT field and this kind of debate is common.

3D printing is hobby for me, design and print things I need home, some crazy things from the internet.

With that being said, my main filament is PLA+ and I've tried TPU which was kinda okay. The PETG I go here, Australia, requires the same temps as the TPU.

So avoiding changing the whole thing to stay with the workaround that I currently use and works 100% seems to be way. I believe I still have some left and I wouldn't say expensive, just AUD27.

I've heard about the pain that it's to clean the stock extruder. And yes, as you mentioned, extruder and hotend walk together.

Thanks to you guys I'm more relaxed regarding theses must-do upgrades 🙂

Posted : 30/07/2021 5:48 pm
Share: