Review: Dragon Hotend  

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cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@gabrielcr78

I will try this weekend.  I can't imagine it would do anything different than on the Mosquito.

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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/02/2021 2:41 am
Photogad
(@photogad)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @hackmonkey

I am guessing that maybe not all "Dragon" hot ends are the same. The Phaetus version I have has a very nicely played and polished copper heat block and nozzle. Copper has very different thermal properties than aluminum. I have seen a couple Dragon varieties that appear to use aluminum blocks and brass nozzles.

This standard Phaetus version I have does not string at all with PLA, PETG, or ABS. 

In my case I had the TriangleLabs dragon, not the Phaetus.  I'm not sure the difference, maybe someone else can research and shed some light.

 

Either way, I ditched dragon all together and went Mosquito, which has same issues (it is only slightly less stringy on PLA than the dragon), but at least I get a better mount and better cable management. 

 

The stock e3d hot end gave me 0 stringing on PLA, but I can't go back to it because I'm a guy with 20 nozzles and it's so much easier to change nozzles with the mosquito and a lot safer too.

Posted : 26/02/2021 3:54 am
Photogad
(@photogad)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @gabrielcr78

nice!!!! so, i'm confused.. is the bridgemaster a different material thanregular copper? also.. would the Bridgemaster work on the dragon hotend?

 

i've been thinking if i should switch to the mosquito.. but not sure if i want to invest 200$ right now on it... have you tried the bridgemaster on the dragon or is it not possible?

 

thaqnks a lot again @photogad !

It's a copper alloy core but I'm not sure what the outer surface is. They claim superior bridging performance (obviously) but I wasn't too impressed with a 200mm test bridge I did (it sagged a bit), however I did not do a direct comparison to the standard brass nozzles.

https://www.sliceengineering.com/products/bridgemaster%C2%AE-nozzle

They did say it's not as durable as their vanadium nozzles, and those are similar to hardened steel/nozzleX. Just different brand.

 

Yes, they are compatible with dragon. Same thread as e3d nozzles. You will need to readjust live-z though because these nozzles are shorter than the e3d ones.

Posted : 26/02/2021 4:01 am
Photogad
(@photogad)
Eminent Member

One other thing I want to note on dragon vs. mosquito.

I had minor issues with MMU prints while I ran the dragon, sometimes mmu interventions (one or two was typical in a 8+ hour mmu print) but my tips looked pretty bad, very long and stringy.

 

With the mosquito, I have had 0 mmu issues and my tips look fantastic.

 

But I suppose this is because the Bondtech firmware for mosquito is optimized for MMU and they give you oerfect6 PrusaSlicer cooling tube lengths. 

 

With dragon, I'm sure I could have tweaked it, but it would have been a lot of trial and error because the dragon comes with zero support and zero instructions.

That's part of the premium you get with a mosquito, excellent support and instructions. Kind of like Apple vs. Android (Apple is overpriced but their support is unmatched).

 

 

Posted : 26/02/2021 4:07 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@photogad

“With dragon, I'm sure I could have tweaked it, but it would have been a lot of trial and error because the dragon comes with zero support and zero instructions.”

This I will agree with.  You get what you pay for.  $90 vs over $150.  I reverted back to the mosquito on two.  I still have the Dragon on one.  I am still decidng on the merits of the Dragon.  

This post was modified 2 months ago by cwbullet
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/02/2021 10:48 am
jmillerfo
(@jmillerfo)
Active Member

@photogad

The Dragon should not require any firmware modification if mounted using the supplied Groove top mount.  Mind did not.  To support one hand nozzle change I modified Prusa's "extruder-cover" part adding a flat which engages two of the vertical heat exchanger supports.  See:

Triangle Labs Dragon Drop In Hot End by jmillerfo | Download free STL model | PrusaPrinters

I have no issue with stringing and MMU2 Support is near flawless... much improved over the E3Dv6.

...
Posted : 26/02/2021 1:05 pm
gabrielcr78
(@gabrielcr78)
Active Member
Posted by: @photogad
Posted by: @gabrielcr78

nice!!!! so, i'm confused.. is the bridgemaster a different material thanregular copper? also.. would the Bridgemaster work on the dragon hotend?

 

i've been thinking if i should switch to the mosquito.. but not sure if i want to invest 200$ right now on it... have you tried the bridgemaster on the dragon or is it not possible?

 

thaqnks a lot again @photogad !

It's a copper alloy core but I'm not sure what the outer surface is. They claim superior bridging performance (obviously) but I wasn't too impressed with a 200mm test bridge I did (it sagged a bit), however I did not do a direct comparison to the standard brass nozzles.

https://www.sliceengineering.com/products/bridgemaster%C2%AE-nozzle

They did say it's not as durable as their vanadium nozzles, and those are similar to hardened steel/nozzleX. Just different brand.

 

Yes, they are compatible with dragon. Same thread as e3d nozzles. You will need to readjust live-z though because these nozzles are shorter than the e3d ones.

thanks a lot man!, yeah yesterday i was trying to put an order but unfortunately they don't have the .4 mm on stock.. i'll be checking often to make sure  i order one next time they have avail..

I'm actually really close to order a mosquito... i swear i should have gone for it from the beginning.. this dragon seems great with ABS.. but with this PLA it sucks a bit.. i'm also waiting for another roll of pla, just to discard there's something wrong with this  specific roll... but seems like dragons are hit or miss, ordered from trianglelab as these are supposed toi be the best around... and it's the V2.. i wonder if the V1 was the same.

Posted : 26/02/2021 2:01 pm
gabrielcr78
(@gabrielcr78)
Active Member
Posted by: @cwbullet

@photogad

“ I reverted back to the mosquito on two.  I still have the Dragon on one.  I am still decidng on the merits of the Dragon.  

do let us know when you come to a conclusion 🙂

Posted : 26/02/2021 2:09 pm
gabrielcr78
(@gabrielcr78)
Active Member

@jmillerfo

what nozzle are you using @jmillerfo?

Posted : 26/02/2021 2:12 pm
HackMonkey
(@hackmonkey)
Active Member

How is a nozzle supposed to help with bridging? Bridging is more about cooling, isn't it? 

Posted : 26/02/2021 2:16 pm
gabrielcr78
(@gabrielcr78)
Active Member

i'm not sure a nozzle change could help bridging or not, but what was reported by photogad (i think) was that this nozzle helps reducing stringing (which is what was being discussed lately), but i can imagine some nozzles could cause more stringing than others, because i guess it's easier for the filament to stick to some nozzles than others.

not a materials engineer, but doesn't sound crazy that the nozzle could have an impact on stringing... about bridging.. i concur with you. it seems less likely that the material of the nozzle affects.. just the temps seems more like it

Posted : 26/02/2021 2:26 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@gabrielcr78

I really sorry you have a tough time with the Dragon.  The Mosquito is fantastic.  I actually like both the Dragon and Mosquito.  I have not had to divert from the Standard generic or Prusa ABS, PLA, or PETG settings.  Each printer is different.  I have one that I have to print at 5-10C lower temps.  I have never been able to figure it out and a PID tuning does not change it.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/02/2021 2:34 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@gabrielcr78

Nozzle: If you are interested, I have used the vanadium nozzle from Slice Engineerfing and Nozzle X from e3D.  Both work well.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/02/2021 2:42 pm
gabrielcr78
(@gabrielcr78)
Active Member

awesome!!! in that case, i think i'm just going to go ahead and order now with the vanadium nozzle.. i was going to wait for the bridge master... i'm in Costa Rica and need to make shipping count cause it's expensive XD

Posted : 26/02/2021 2:45 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@gabrielcr78

To be honest, at this stage, I think their is not much difference in print quality or performance on the Dragon vs. the Mosquito.  With the lack of documentation, I would recommend that people purchase the Mosquito.  If you like to tinker and want to save cash, buy the Dragon.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/02/2021 2:45 pm
Photogad
(@photogad)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @jmillerfo

@photogad

The Dragon should not require any firmware modification if mounted using the supplied Groove top mount.  Mind did not.  To support one hand nozzle change I modified Prusa's "extruder-cover" part adding a flat which engages two of the vertical heat exchanger supports.  See:

Triangle Labs Dragon Drop In Hot End by jmillerfo | Download free STL model | PrusaPrinters

I have no issue with stringing and MMU2 Support is near flawless... much improved over the E3Dv6.

I am aware of that part, I did use it but I made it in PETG, it deformed while I was trying to do some very high temp prints and my dragon fell out the bottom and crashed into my bed. I was using the Noctua fan at the time because my Sunon broke. If I made the part out of PC I suppose I would have been fine.

 

I understand lots don't have issues with Dragon and MMU; likewise lots of people don't have stringing with Dragon either. Just sharing my experiences. Like I said the MMU interventions with my Dragon weren't horrible, one or two here and there; I'm just saying that with my Mosquito the MMU tips look a lot better out of the box and I've had 0 mmu issues.

 

 

Posted : 26/02/2021 2:55 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member

@photogad

Do you want another printed? 

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/02/2021 3:01 pm
Photogad
(@photogad)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @gabrielcr78

i'm not sure a nozzle change could help bridging or not, but what was reported by photogad (i think) was that this nozzle helps reducing stringing (which is what was being discussed lately), but i can imagine some nozzles could cause more stringing than others, because i guess it's easier for the filament to stick to some nozzles than others.

not a materials engineer, but doesn't sound crazy that the nozzle could have an impact on stringing... about bridging.. i concur with you. it seems less likely that the material of the nozzle affects.. just the temps seems more like it

Copper has better thermal conductivity, and that's why they claim it has better bridging performance. I can't explain why,  as I'm not an engineer either.  I'm not sure if that also helps with stringing problems, but my experience is that the Bridgemaster did reduce my stringing a little bit over the e3d brass nozzle, and a lot better than the vanadium/hardened steel nozzles.

I felt like the Vanadium nozzles stringed more than the NozzleX I had. If I could rate nozzles I've owned on a  level of print quality/stringiness, they would be in this order:

  1. Slice Bridgemaster Copper Alloy
  2. E3D v6 Brass
  3. E3D NozzleX Steel
  4. Slice Vanadium Steel

I have no experience with stainless steel or tungsten carbide nozzles. The discord groups seem to have a lot of love for tungsten carbide.

I really like the Slice nozzles, though, it's nice they have the actual sizes printed on them instead of the silly dot system the e3d ones use.

Posted : 26/02/2021 3:10 pm
Photogad
(@photogad)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @cwbullet

@photogad

Do you want another printed? 

No, I'm not using dragon anymore, I'm using mosquito now. But, for interest of science, maybe you could print this in a vibrant and dark PLA like red or purple, and take a photo of the back side (side away from fan). Just to see how others are having strings with Dragon compared to what I was having with Dragon (and to a slightly lesser extent, mosquito)

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2729076

 

Single temp, 100% fan is fine, use prusa default print profiles with PLA temp of 215c. Can stop print about 1/3 way up. I use that temperature tower model as a benchmark for stringiness because it has a lot of travel moves and that's where I was having the stringing with Dragon (and also on Mosquito too). With any object printed in vase mode (0 travel) I had no stringing with Dragon.

 

Pics below for example of the stringing.

 

Posted : 26/02/2021 3:21 pm
jmillerfo
(@jmillerfo)
Active Member

@gabrielcr78

Its the nozzle that came with the Dragon.

...
Posted : 26/02/2021 4:10 pm
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