Prusament PETG destroyed my MK3 print sheet
 

Prusament PETG destroyed my MK3 print sheet  

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 Anonymous

Hello,

I'm a proud Original MK3 owner and very happy with the printer for nearly a year now. Normally, I print in ABS. But that's boring over time and I wanted to try something new like the new Prusament PETG filament. So I ordered a spool to test it. But actually, I'm not to happy with it. Sure, it's really strong, but the adhesion to the bed is more problematic than with ABS or PLA (in my opinion). Now, the Prusament PETG accomplished to tear some surface material (seems to be the coating) off of the print bed. It actually destroyed the surface which really grinds my gears. I let it cool down and bent the metal print sheet as I always do, and PETG often is hard to remove. Not ok. I never had such problems with PLA or even the cheapest ABS I can think of. Now I can look forward to see this mark grow and grow over time since the coating now has a "hole". 🙁

Posted : 07/09/2019 11:11 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member

It looks like you used glue stick, but the sheets are consumables, especially after a year. I have the problem with high-temp stuff at 260C+ and trashed a surface myself. 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 07/09/2019 11:20 pm
 Anonymous

Did not use glue stick. Never did.

I understand that print sheets are consumables, but this damage after only a single year? And I didn't print too much on this printer, actually only a few dozens of prints.

I have an old print sheet from 2013 which still holds up to today. I don't know the exact material of it, but it's similar to PEI. Then I also have a PEI-coated alu print plate from 2016. Still absolute fine today.

If this is the quality of the Prusa print sheets I reject the idea of getting myself a powder-coated Prusa print sheet.

I'm only very frustrated of this problem. After only a few months, now it's trash. Not good.

Posted : 07/09/2019 11:32 pm
david.a66
(@david-a66)
Honorable Member

it's that PETG really likes to grab PEI - any PETG and any PEI. that's why many people suggest a light windex spray on the sheet before printing PETG, it creates a release layer

Posted : 08/09/2019 12:28 am
Sembazuru
(@sembazuru)
Prominent Member

If you read any of the advice from Prusa about printing PETG on their PEI sheets, they advise using some sort of separator agent. I just looked through several of the guides on the Prusa web pages and found references to using glue stick or windex. They specifically advise you not to use alcohol right before printing with PETG. I haven't double checked to verify, but I think I recall also reading that in the printed manual that came with my MK3.

I'm sorry, I know it sucks, but if you don't follow the manufacturer's suggestion you can't blame them for damage. However, please don't think that I'm trying to blame you. You could have very well forgotten since you said you haven't used PETG before after having owned the printer for nearly a year. We all occasionally make mistakes.

See my (limited) designs on:
PrusaPrinters - https://www.prusaprinters.org/social/1448-sembazuru/prints
Thingiverse - https://www.thingiverse.com/Sembazuru/designs...
Posted : 08/09/2019 12:41 am
cjameshuff
(@cjameshuff)
Active Member
Posted by: david.a66

it's that PETG really likes to grab PEI - any PETG and any PEI. that's why many people suggest a light windex spray on the sheet before printing PETG, it creates a release layer

And Prusa specifically warns that PETG can adhere too strongly and recommends a release agent.

I've been printing primarily with PETG on a smooth PEI sheet since I got my printer a few months ago. A wipedown with a Windex-sprayed paper towel is all I do before a print, and the parts just pop off without any trouble when the print is done. The purge line gave me trouble once, so I put a strip of Kapton tape there...now it's quite quick and easy to clean the remnants of each print off in preparation for the next. The biggest annoyance I get is bits of support that get left behind when the part comes off.

Posted : 08/09/2019 12:50 am
fheatherz
(@fheatherz)
Eminent Member

As others have said, Windex is great for this.. I print Prusament PETG all the time on the smooth PEI, I just pat dry some windex first and it pops right off when cool.

Posted : 08/09/2019 12:54 am
Tim
(@tim-m30)
Illustrious Member

PETG on smooth PEI is like super glue; or it doesn't stick at all.  Depends on brand, and much be tested with very very small parts. 

Freeze 15 minutes, then remove for best results.  Learned this trick after a 45 minute removal to avoid serious damage. Took a month for the bubbles under my sheet to go away.

This post was modified 1 year ago by Tim
It is always wise to get more than one opinion......
Posted : 08/09/2019 2:41 am
Bioluminous
(@bioluminous)
Trusted Member

I had a similar issue with PETG taking out chunks of my older smooth sheet. I went the route of ordering a new PEI sheet. Although 2 replacement PEI sheets are cheaper than a new smooth sheet, it was a big time suck to remove the old and apply the new. I wouldn't recommend it. Just get a new sheet - the black ones they're shipping now are much better with PETG. On some PETG I've used glue stick for a release layer, especially on larger prints. And I would highly recommend trying the textured sheet with PETG as the results are very good. Once the print cools to around 50ºC it releases itself from the textured sheet. I've had no problems with PETG and the textured sheet.

Posted : 08/09/2019 2:56 am
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: markus.e6

Did not use glue stick. Never did.

Ah well... if you didn't use a release agent of some sort, I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. PETG is known for taking chunk out of glass witho ut proper bed prep. On cooler stuff, I wipe it with fingers or give it a spritz with Windex. On hotter stuff, glue stick or MagiGoo keep me out of trouble. This pic tells the tale of my learning experience. Tried high-temp (270C) 3DXTech PETG and could not get it loose. Tore the bed up and designated it my experimental sheet. In this pic, I did the same print with the same filament on the same sheet, but using a release agent (MagiGoo) and it worked without problems. Live and learn...

I understand that print sheets are consumables, but this damage after only a single year? And I didn't print too much on this printer, actually only a few dozens of prints.

Well, for something that sees abuse like sheets, a year would be highly unusual. Most warranties are against manufacturer defects. If you printed for a year, I'd say there were no defects. I am annoyed with Prusa for not at least acknowledging that the powder-coated sheets are poor for PLA without a lot of work, but I'm not expecting a refund or swap either.

If this is the quality of the Prusa print sheets I reject the idea of getting myself a powder-coated Prusa print sheet.

Ironically, the powder-coated sheet is superior for PETG, but do what works for you.

I'm only very frustrated of this problem. After only a few months, now it's trash. Not good.

Uhm... you said a year. 

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 08/09/2019 3:09 am
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: shrikestorm

I had a similar issue with PETG taking out chunks of my older smooth sheet. I went the route of ordering a new PEI sheet. Although 2 replacement PEI sheets are cheaper than a new smooth sheet, it was a big time suck to remove the old and apply the new. I wouldn't recommend it.

Agreed. Replacing the Prusa (and most) self-adhesive PEI surfaces really sucks. I have found that the BuildTak PEI sheets are relatively easy to remove, so will be ordering them for repairs in the future. I also like the PrintSolid thinner and springier flex sheets.

Just get a new sheet - the black ones they're shipping now are much better with PETG. On some PETG I've used glue stick for a release layer, especially on larger prints. And I would highly recommend trying the textured sheet with PETG as the results are very good. Once the print cools to around 50ºC it releases itself from the textured sheet. I've had no problems with PETG and the textured sheet.

The powder-coated texture sheets are great for PETG. I do think they should describe them as such. They can be frustrating for PLA. Fortunately, I have spared, but it would suck to only have the PC for PLA.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 08/09/2019 3:13 am
Robert-mm200
(@robert-rmm200)
Noble Member

What Bobstro said.

I highly recommend having a PEI sheet for PLA, and a PC sheet for PETG.

PETG has never touched my PEI sheet - and it never will. On the other hand, PLA really prints very well on my specific PC sheet. YMMV.

Posted : 08/09/2019 5:17 am
olaf.groeger
(@olaf-groeger)
Eminent Member

That's what i do, too.

Posted : 08/09/2019 10:45 am
 Anonymous
Posted by: Sembazuru

If you read any of the advice from Prusa about printing PETG on their PEI sheets, they advise using some sort of separator agent. I just looked through several of the guides on the Prusa web pages and found references to using glue stick or windex. They specifically advise you not to use alcohol right before printing with PETG. I haven't double checked to verify, but I think I recall also reading that in the printed manual that came with my MK3.

I'm sorry, I know it sucks, but if you don't follow the manufacturer's suggestion you can't blame them for damage. However, please don't think that I'm trying to blame you. You could have very well forgotten since you said you haven't used PETG before after having owned the printer for nearly a year. We all occasionally make mistakes.

Where is the advice of using glue stick (or other agent)? It was not on the actualy product, not on the box. If Prusa doesn't clearly state how to use the product then it's not a "mistake".

Besides of that, I'm amused by the idea of using "special agents" to help with adhesion. This is something I did the last time in 2012 because all of my print beds afterwards were able to handle all materials without extra chemicals. Funny, that is not the case for Prusa.

This post was modified 1 year ago by
Posted : 08/09/2019 11:28 am
 Anonymous
Posted by: shrikestorm

I had a similar issue with PETG taking out chunks of my older smooth sheet. I went the route of ordering a new PEI sheet. Although 2 replacement PEI sheets are cheaper than a new smooth sheet, it was a big time suck to remove the old and apply the new. I wouldn't recommend it. Just get a new sheet - the black ones they're shipping now are much better with PETG. On some PETG I've used glue stick for a release layer, especially on larger prints. And I would highly recommend trying the textured sheet with PETG as the results are very good. Once the print cools to around 50ºC it releases itself from the textured sheet. I've had no problems with PETG and the textured sheet.

If I only could find replacement print beds. The official Prusa shop doesn't seem to supply them (at the moment?!). Funny.

Well, it's only a small mark, and the other side is still fine, so nothing to bad here at the moment, but still.

Posted : 08/09/2019 11:32 am
cjameshuff
(@cjameshuff)
Active Member
Posted by: fheatherz

As others have said, Windex is great for this.. I print Prusament PETG all the time on the smooth PEI, I just pat dry some windex first and it pops right off when cool.

And they stay put during the print itself. I notice the pictured print has a substantial brim...I've only had to use a brim with PETG on one specific part which had only a few lines in contact with the bed.

I have had very small parts (a 1 cm half-Earth for a specific example) have problems separating when the sheet is flexed, while providing little grip for fingers. Flexing the sheet typically opens a gap, and sliding a sheet of paper into that gap can then help fully pop the part off. The same approach might help separate PETG in other cases while reducing risk to the PEI if the Windex fails, using the paper as a wedge instead of relying on the PEI adhesive. But again, this is not a typical problem I've had.

Posted : 08/09/2019 3:43 pm
Olef
 olef
(@olef)
Honorable Member

I print PETG on the PEI sheets all the time. Windex is all you need as a release agent, as recommended by Prusa. In two years I have never caused this kind of damage to a PEI sheet.

Posted : 08/09/2019 7:20 pm
charles.h13
(@charles-h13)
Famed Member

If it took you a year to damage it, consider your self lucky.  I have a powder-coated and a smooth that have damage after a little over a year.  

Posted : 09/09/2019 11:22 am
david.a66
(@david-a66)
Honorable Member

@novem the sheets are in the prusa store , make sure you are logged in to see them

Posted : 09/09/2019 11:42 am
cjameshuff
(@cjameshuff)
Active Member
Posted by: markus.e6
Where is the advice of using glue stick (or other agent)? It was not on the actualy product, not on the box. If Prusa doesn't clearly state how to use the product then it's not a "mistake".

Besides of that, I'm amused by the idea of using "special agents" to help with adhesion. This is something I did the last time in 2012 because all of my print beds afterwards were able to handle all materials without extra chemicals. Funny, that is not the case for Prusa.

From the shop:

Before printing, make sure the surface of heatbed is clean as described in 3D Printing Handbook. Do not use isopropyl alcohol to clean the bed, or the adhesion may be too strong, if you do not have anything else on hand, use the bundled glue as a separator after cleaning it. Windex or similar windows cleaner is a great option for PET and you don’t need to use the glue after the cleaning. Pour a little amount on an unscented paper towel and wipe the print surface.

Handbook, page 13:

The best option is ​Isopropyl alcohol ​available indrugstores which is the best for ABS, PLA and others (except for PETG in combination withthe smooth PEI sheet, where the adhesion may be too strong. See the chapter ​12.2 PET​ forinstructions).

Handbook, page 56:

You shouldn’t use isopropyl alcohol to clean the bed​, the adhesion may be too strong. If you do not have anything else on hand, use the bundled glue as a separator after cleaning it. Windex or similar window cleaner is a great option for cleaning the heatbed for PET.

Material guide:

Do not use isopropyl alcohol, otherwise the adhesion may be too strong. You can use the bundled glue stick as a separator, however a better choice is Windws or similiar window cleaner. Pour a little amount of it on an unscented paper towel and wipe the print surface. For more information about print surface maintenance, read our guide.

Knowledge base:

PETG sticks very well to PEI, which is generally a good thing. However, sometimes it could stick a little bit too well, and you could rip a piece of PEI coating from the bed. To prevent that from happening, apply a separating agent (e.g., glue stick) onto the print surface.

They seem to have provided the info everywhere anyone would look, and a few more places on top of that, while they are hardly unusual in not printing manual pages on their filament boxes. A quick Google shows gluesticks or Windex seem to be common practice, not some Prusa-specific thing. Sorry, but you goofed.

Posted : 09/09/2019 12:39 pm
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