[Solved] MK4 Wishlist  

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bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: @steven-s23

I posted a link earlier to a multi tool changer, not sure if you saw it.

https://diabasemachines.com/technology

I'm getting a 404 on that link. Just to be clear though, the level I was thinking was for manual tool changes, not automatic. The SnapMaker takes a few minutes to switch between modes. The ZMorph VX is in the $4,500 category, but goes all-in with dual extruder and "thick paste extrusion" (not food-safe!) swappable tool heads. Go a bit less extreme and I wonder if there's an opportunity.

My main point being that there are opportunities to disrupt at the higher end rather than getting into the race-to-the-bottom at the low end of FFF 3D printing.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 20/09/2019 4:40 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: @steven-s23

I posted a link earlier to a multi tool changer, not sure if you saw it.

https://diabasemachines.com/technology

Ah, it seems to live here now. Interesting machine. That looks to be in the same class as the ZMorph. These types of combo units are becoming more common, even if not in the consumer class yet. This might be an opportunity for someone to do a machine that does 80% of what these do for 50% or less of the price and hit a sweet spot for the consumer market while still maintaining profit margins. I think the MMU2 is a good example of what can happen if you aim too low. It works, but is very fiddly.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 20/09/2019 4:57 pm
steven.s23
(@steven-s23)
Active Member

@bobstro

Sorry for the bad link.  

If Prusa could do something similar, it would be wonderful.  I do not think Prusa needs to introduce  the machining tools right away, but the concept for printing multiple materials and cleaning the print head is outstanding.  Tool changes are extremely quick.  Compared to the MMU2 and other dual head designs, this is quite a step ahead.

The MK4 should  be a tool changing printer like this.

Posted : 20/09/2019 6:34 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: @steven-s23

[...] Sorry for the bad link.  

No worries. Interesting device.

If Prusa could do something similar, it would be wonderful.  I do not think Prusa needs to introduce  the machining tools right away, but the concept for printing multiple materials and cleaning the print head is outstanding.  Tool changes are extremely quick.  Compared to the MMU2 and other dual head designs, this is quite a step ahead.

I'm facing a heater block replacement soon, and I might as well do a heatbreak swap while I'm at it. Looking at my Mk3, I'm really dreading taking it apart, removing the extruder, disconnecting and possibly replacing the heater cartridge and thermistor, and dealing with the cabling mess. Even if Prusa doesn't start with a multi-tool offering initially, cleaning up the Mk3 design and making cabling more modular and easy to maintain would be a big step. Make it easy to swap out the entire extruder assembly, whether to replace it with another tool, or just try a different extruder. This would also provide some "future proofing" to the design by making assembly swaps easier. It would improve cabling reliability and safety -- factors that Prusa still stands out from the low-end competition for.

The MK4 should  be a tool changing printer like this.

Definitely modular. Locking into a fixed set of tool offerings is probably not a good idea. Come up with a flexible fast-swap mechanism and cabling and they can adapt as new technologies become more affordable. I'd love to try out a Mosquito hotend without a rebuild.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 20/09/2019 6:59 pm
laura.f2 liked
alex.w6
(@alex-w6)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @steven-s23

The MK4 should  be a tool changing printer like this.

I tend to agree with @bobstro - a multi-tool printer would be such a departure from the i3 that it'd be a new machine, not an i4. I don't know that I'd even want that - the thing that's stopped me from getting a snapmaker is that, for the price, it's a little too compromised on all points. It's a good 3D printer (and now much better than the previous gen), but sacrifices all the mod-ability and upgradability of the i3. It's a decent laser engraver, but you could have that cheaper and with a much larger area by simply buying one of the cheap $250 machines around. The most interesting part to me is CNC, but again, from a stiffness standpoint, it doesn't beat other hobby CNCs, so why deal with cleaning all the crap off your 3D printer to change tasks?

I think it's a good machine, and a good deal, but I don't necessarily agree its design choices are best for the core customer base of Prusa, who like a machine they can mod and improve and whatnot.

I definitely agree with @bobstro about cable modularity and design improvements. A lot of that work is already done, even - if prusa just adopted the bear mod printed parts as official, and tweaked the extruder per bondtech's geared setup, those alone would be a worthy rev. Toss a few more connectors on the cabling for ease of relocation/extension/modification and I'd consider upgrading just to avoid doing those mods myself.

Posted : 20/09/2019 7:09 pm
laura.f2 liked
gnat
 gnat
(@gnat)
Prominent Member

Not sure how well a removable CNC head would be for accuracy, but I like the idea of them building a modular head design with an Open Source spec. I don't see why being able to swap in a laser/ink/paste/whatever head should really over complicate things at all if they standardize on a good mounting plate and wiring connector (preferably with some space for expansion). Price shouldn't even really have to change that much as they could still sell it with just the FDM head.

Then they could make additional heads to sell and I'm sure the community would come up with a few too.

MMU tips and troubleshooting...
Posted : 20/09/2019 7:28 pm
alex.w6
(@alex-w6)
Eminent Member

@gnat

A CNC head would be bad (poor architecture for reacting forces, no current provision for workholding, etc) but I agree totally with the idea of making a more modular tool holder. To the points above about modularity, only good can come from having some kind of common unified electrical connector. Cooling fan swap? Easy: connector. New stepper? No need to undo the whole shebang. Etc. 

Posted : 20/09/2019 7:52 pm
charles.h13
(@charles-h13)
Famed Member

I like the idea of a tool changer even if it is just print heads.  I would love to be able to remove a print head so use a Mosquito or E3D or even 3mm hotend.  

Posted : 20/09/2019 8:19 pm
laura.f2 liked
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
Posted by: @charles-h13

I like the idea of a tool changer even if it is just print heads.  I would love to be able to remove a print head so use a Mosquito or E3D or even 3mm hotend.  

Heck, even just swapping between an E3D V6 for detail and a SuperVolcano for bulk prints would be fantastic. Open the spec up as @gnat suggests and you'd make the Prusa platform a garden for innovation. I enjoy following all the amazing extruder and cooling designs that are produced in this community, but the prospect of tearing apart my machine and twiddling firmware to try some out is daunting. Make the mounting modular and easy to remove, and provide for entry of some hardware parameters, and I think Prusa would be in that sweet spot of having an even-larger avid following of users iterating and improving for them.

This post was modified 11 months ago by bobstro
My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 20/09/2019 8:25 pm
laura.f2 liked
alex.w6
(@alex-w6)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @bobstro
Posted by: @charles-h13

I like the idea of a tool changer even if it is just print heads.  I would love to be able to remove a print head so use a Mosquito or E3D or even 3mm hotend.  

Heck, even just swapping between an E3D V6 for detail and a SuperVolcano for bulk prints would be fantastic. Open the spec up as @gnat suggests and you'd make the Prusa platform a garden for innovation. I enjoy following all the amazing extruder and cooling designs that are produced in this community, but the prospect of tearing apart my machine and twiddling firmware to try some out is daunting. Make the mounting modular and easy to remove, and provide for entry of some hardware parameters, and I think Prusa would be in that sweet spot of having an even-larger avid following of users iterating and improving for them.

I can totally agree with this line of thinking. I don’t really care about automatic, but easy manual tool changing would be great. .4mm e3dv6 for normal stuff, 1mm supervolcano for fast BIG prints, e3dv6 loaded up with a .2 for smaller more detailed stuff, etc. mosquito for experimentation...

the reason I haven’t upgraded to the bondtech extruded yet is mostly the time commitment of rebuilding the axis, and having to get everything correct and dialed in before I can print again. 

Posted : 20/09/2019 8:33 pm
laura.f2 liked
charles.h13
(@charles-h13)
Famed Member
Posted by: @alex-w6
Posted by: @bobstro
Posted by: @charles-h13

I like the idea of a tool changer even if it is just print heads.  I would love to be able to remove a print head so use a Mosquito or E3D or even 3mm hotend.  

Heck, even just swapping between an E3D V6 for detail and a SuperVolcano for bulk prints would be fantastic. Open the spec up as @gnat suggests and you'd make the Prusa platform a garden for innovation. I enjoy following all the amazing extruder and cooling designs that are produced in this community, but the prospect of tearing apart my machine and twiddling firmware to try some out is daunting. Make the mounting modular and easy to remove, and provide for entry of some hardware parameters, and I think Prusa would be in that sweet spot of having an even-larger avid following of users iterating and improving for them.

I can totally agree with this line of thinking. I don’t really care about automatic, but easy manual tool changing would be great. .4mm e3dv6 for normal stuff, 1mm supervolcano for fast BIG prints, e3dv6 loaded up with a .2 for smaller more detailed stuff, etc. mosquito for experimentation...

the reason I haven’t upgraded to the bondtech extruded yet is mostly the time commitment of rebuilding the axis, and having to get everything correct and dialed in before I can print again. 

Concur with you both. 

Posted : 20/09/2019 8:36 pm
laura.f2 liked
ron
 ron
(@ron)
Estimable Member

@alex-w6

I agree. For a Prusa line of product, a CNC head would not fit. Any tool without external force is OK.

And me too I would like to switch back and forth to a volcano like extruder or mosquito. I never try it because it is a lot of time to set up correctly and to tweak the parameters.

And printed parts is an advantage for the Prusa versatility (it is one of the company basis) but I doubt it is for a multi-tool system. That kind of machine, I highly suspect you need machined parts.

...
Posted : 20/09/2019 9:16 pm
chocki
(@chocki)
Prominent Member

I already stated in some reply somewhere on this forum, that a filament purge with a slide down the profile of the nozzle type scissors action would clean the nozzle ready for the next print.

Currently we are looking at some sort of mechanical device which is actuated by the movement of the print head. I think this is wrong, it should be a stand alone powered system triggered by the print head in the correct position. It is possible to use G-code to trigger an output pin much like the camera trigger, this could be re purposed to a bit of hardware which would wipe clean the nozzle between filament changes.

Normal people believe that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain’t broke, it doesn’t have enough features yet....
Posted : 20/09/2019 9:24 pm
alex.w6
(@alex-w6)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @ron

That kind of machine, I highly suspect you need machined parts.

Maybe not, at least not how I think you're thinking - all you'd need is highly repeatable kinematic coupling. That'd require parts with low wear and high stiffness, but not necessarily high accuracy, since you'd calibrate out the inaccuracy when you leveled the bed on a given tool. Really, you could probably get away with just a few commodity metal parts.

Kinda like this, though I'm confident there's a cheaper/less complicated assembly to achieve the same end:

Posted : 20/09/2019 9:46 pm
bobstro liked
laura.f2
(@laura-f2)
Trusted Member

Perhaps a hotend with quick change nozzles like the Ultimaker?

Upgrade to the extruder motor to 0.9 rather than 1.8 stepper

Offer the option of some higher end bearings (such as the Mitsumi)

And finally - of course! - upgrade the Einsy to something a little meatier

 

Posted : 21/09/2019 12:36 am
legacyofbob
(@legacyofbob)
Active Member

How about a dual/quad extruder?

Posted : 24/09/2019 7:46 pm
Lichtjaeger
(@lichtjaeger)
Prominent Member

E3D Hermes Upgrade

Posted : 27/09/2019 6:28 pm
bizilux
(@bizilux)
Active Member

bigger
and
wifi

but we can talk all day and all night, and it would be meaningless because 99% of features for mk4 are probably already decided/done

This post was modified 10 months ago by bizilux
Posted : 28/09/2019 9:33 am
martin.d17
(@martin-d17)
Trusted Member

Modular cables with connectors is a must, when something happens it is pain in the ass to replace just termistor or heater cartridge... Replacable printing head would be also great.

Posted : 02/10/2019 12:40 pm
gnat and bobstro liked
Lichtjaeger
(@lichtjaeger)
Prominent Member

Maybe we shouldn't think about an i3 MK4 but more about a coreXY MK1?

Posted : 02/10/2019 1:08 pm
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