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Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.  

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cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Quote: My printer does not need adhesives.  I print mostly with PETG and it sicks well.  When I use ABS, I use ABS Slury.

You are correct about the fact that each print surface and filament are different. In my first post and the others in the thread, I indicated that settings are the key and that is especially true for Z offset or Live Z.  Some filaments are tough to stick even with the right setting.  On each of Prusa MK3S, I use different settings and products. 

I will use 3 of them to illustrate the point:

  1. My Bear Prusa had a mid-age PEI textured coated sheet. ABS sticks very well and needs no assistance. I use a little hair spray to assist with adhesion on,y with the most difficult to stick products. With this printer, Rarely is an adhesive needed.
  2. My First Prusa has a very old PEI Sheet that PEI Textured sheet that has been worn a little over time and tends over adhere to the bed and requires precious time to remove ABS prints. I don't need help to get items to stick, but a little glue stick or Magigoo helps prevent me from having to spend as much time with a plastic razor blade.
  3. The last MK3s printer has the youngest bed. Almost pristine PEU Textured surface has minimal damage. Prints come off without an issue and only the most difficult filament requires assistance. I can print ABS on it with any glues what so every.

I agree with the slurry of ABS on glass but I would recommend it on the PEI beds. You must individualize the approach you take to bed adhesives to the bed and the filament.

 

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/07/2020 12:17 pm
Dronitoni
(@dronitoni)
Eminent Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

I started with PLA on my Mini some month ago. The adhesion to the PEI sheet was never a problem when I cleaned it with IPA. I use the cheapest IPA I can get from Amazon.

After a while I switched to PETG (Prusament) and made the experience that I had lots of difficulties to remove the parts from the sheet. The adhesion between PEI sheet and PETG was to good. 

Later I checked the Mini manual and found (it is written somewhere), that it is not recommended to clean the PEI sheet with IPA when printing PETG.

Since then I clean the sheet with window cleaner and warm water from time to time. Works perfect.

 

 

 

 

 

Posted : 26/07/2020 1:18 pm
towlerg
(@towlerg)
Noble Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Stupid questions, what is ABS slurry, do I buy it or make it, is there an equivalent for ASA?

Posted : 26/07/2020 2:59 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@towlerg

ABS slurry is made with:

  • Acetone
  • ABS (cut strands off your spool, or you can recycle ABS support material as well) 

You should not use it on a textured PEI sheet.  For more info: ABS Slurry and Glue

 

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 26/07/2020 3:39 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.
Posted by: @charles-h13

@karl-herbert

No knowledge of self mage plates.  I am interested in more on these surfaces you posted above.

If you mean the Replicator Plus 'grip' plates, I've googled and DDG'd and I can't find anything specific as to what they are.

The next time I'm near the local 'makerspace' I'll drop in and see if the 3d lab is vacant.  They are strictly enforcing one person in the lab at any one time, to the extent of saying no hands-on help from the staff if someone gets stuck.  Maybe I can get a good look (and a greasy finger tactile touch) and get an idea of what those really are.

Posted : 26/07/2020 5:19 pm
karl-herbert
(@karl-herbert)
Illustrious Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@jsw

I am thinking of sticking such material to the spring steel plate with the 3M adhesive foil and testing the adhesion of the printing plate.

Here are a few ideas:

https://visionminer.com/products/carbon-fiber-plate

https://rc-carbonstore.com/Glassfiber-Sheet-Plate-ECO

https://forum.prusaprinters.org/forum/original-prusa-i3-mk3s-mk3-user-mods-octoprint-enclosures-nozzles-.../phenolic-heat-bed-surface-diy-for-polycarbonate/

https://www.filafarm.de/products/druckplatte-fur-abs-und-pla

Statt zu klagen, dass wir nicht alles haben, was wir wollen, sollten wir lieber dankbar sein, dass wir nicht alles bekommen, was wir verdienen....
Posted : 26/07/2020 6:22 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

There are also the Stratasys printers which have 'solved' the issue by using a disposable base plate and a default raft of support filament to hold the actual printed model.

Posted : 26/07/2020 6:46 pm
AnnieR
(@annier)
Estimable Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

In my very limited experience, I'm finding that ABS sticks consistently better than does PLA.

I've yet to try PET or ASA or any of the esoteric ones although I do want to try flex. In every case of a bad stick a quick cleaning has fixed it. 

Posted : 26/07/2020 9:36 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Here's my experience on species of filament that I've used enough to get a handle on how they do or do not stick to the build plate, rated from best stiction to most tricky.  Keep in mind that one which sticks better may be more difficult to remove from the build plate.

1. PC Blend.  They recommend glue stick as a release agent.  I agree.

2. ABS.  My experience is that sticking too well is more of an issue than not sticking.

3. PETg.  Seems to stick well and remove easily.

4. PLA.  More likely to need glue stick to improve stiction than as a release agent.

That's the way I would rank them.

Posted : 26/07/2020 10:53 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.
Posted by: @jsw

Here's my experience on species of filament that I've used enough to get a handle on how they do or do not stick to the build plate, rated from best stiction to most tricky.  Keep in mind that one which sticks better may be more difficult to remove from the build plate.

1. PC Blend.  They recommend glue stick as a release agent.  I agree.

2. ABS.  My experience is that sticking too well is more of an issue than not sticking.

3. PETg.  Seems to stick well and remove easily.

4. PLA.  More likely to need glue stick to improve stiction than as a release agent.

That's the way I would rank them.

I recommend a releasing agent with PC, PC Blend, and some ABS filaments.  The first two are a risk waiting to happen if you do not.  I spend 2 hour cleaning a bed the other day when I forgot.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 27/07/2020 1:24 am
jsw liked
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Are there alternatives to external adhesives?

With many prints and filaments, you can get away without an adhesive.  It is possible to print a 'brim' or "raft" with your print.  Both of these items will promote better bed adhesion by increasing the surface area in contact with the bed.  The goal is to increase adhesion through this surface area.  

The "brim" is a thin platform around your print that ensures successful adhesion.  A "raft" is a thin layer that prints us printed on top instead of directly on the build plate itself. Both are simply removed and thrown away.  

I still recommend using a bed adhesive to protect the build plate.  Some ABSs and PC stick too well to some build plates and you can damage the plate removing them.  I have had to use razor blades (Dangerous and will damage bed) to carefully remove brims and rafts.  Some filaments are too sticky while others just won't stick at all and you do not know until you print them.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 27/07/2020 8:51 am
towlerg
(@towlerg)
Noble Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@bobstro

Bobstro para presidente! Your advice re. IPA on Ultrabase was bang on. Went from a horrible mess to sticking like the proverbial stuff to a blanket (but still easy to remove when glass cools).

If possible, would appreciate very much the profiles you mentioned.

Posted : 27/07/2020 3:36 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.
Posted by: @towlerg

[...] Bobstro para presidente! Your advice re. IPA on Ultrabase was bang on. Went from a horrible mess to sticking like the proverbial stuff to a blanket (but still easy to remove when glass cools).

Glad it helped! I have been pleasantly surprised with the Ultrabase. The waits are annoying, but it works well.

If possible, would appreciate very much the profiles you mentioned.

They're not completely polished, but here's an "early alpha release":

The filament profiles have NOT been fully updated for Linear Advance 1.5.

Let me know if you encounter any issues.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 27/07/2020 4:31 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Noble Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.
Posted by: @charles-h13

@karl-herbert

No knowledge of self mage plates.  I am interested in more on these surfaces you posted above.

A mildly snarky response I got on 'another network' implied that it was PEI.

I would think that if it was indeed PEI, Makerbot would be saying it was.

Posted : 28/07/2020 12:35 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Filament adhesive properties:

 

Each filament has adhesive properties that are different and remembers that each bed is different.  A filament will stick different from glass to textured PET to Garolite.  For this exercise, we are going to assume a single utopian surface and focus solely on the properties of filaments.  I am going to discuss the adhesive properties of PLA, PETG, flexibles, ABS, and PC.  I am putting them in order of adhesiveness - flexibles we can argue, but this is my findings.  

  • PLA or Polylactic Acid is a relatively forgiving filament to having the wrong Z offset.  No all of them are the same and they are hydration dependent (although not has bad as PC or Nylon).  It will stick to the bed without a heated bed but 50-60 degrees improve adhesion.  I personally have never needed a bed adhesive for any PLA.  It adheres strong and comes off with a flex of my print bed.  I have had a few rolls of Hatchbox PLA that I could not get to stick that worked fine with dehydration.  I have never had a roll that was overly adhesive.  I consider PLA the perfect starter filament.  
  • PETG is a Glycol Modified version of Polyethylene Terephthalate.  It is semi-rigid and is less forgiving to a low or high z offset.  Very low warping and readily sticks to the bed with the right Z.  PETG is my favorite filament because it mixes the Ease of PLA with heat tolerance of ABS.  It can have a tendency, in some brands, to stick too much.  3DXSTAT ESD PETG, although based on one roll, to be exceptionally adhesive to the point that I could not get prints off one textured bed.  If it sticks too much or too little, check your Z.  Depending on the brand, smooshing it to the bed overly aggressively can lead to waving and poor adhesion or difficulty removing the print.  In general, it is easy to remove PETG prints, but just not as easy as PLA.

I will discuss more filaments soon.    

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 28/07/2020 10:36 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

I rarely use bed adhesives with PETG and when I so it is hair spray.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 28/07/2020 10:44 am
towlerg
(@towlerg)
Noble Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@bobstro

You mentioned that your glass bed took a long time before it would release the part, I wonder if this plugin would help OctoPrint-Cooldownfan

Posted : 30/07/2020 8:24 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.
Posted by: @towlerg

[...] You mentioned that your glass bed took a long time before it would release the part, I wonder if this plugin would help OctoPrint-Cooldownfan

I'll take a look at it, thanks. The big 300x300 bed can take an hour to cool from PETG temps.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 31/07/2020 2:47 pm
karl-herbert
(@karl-herbert)
Illustrious Member
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@towlerg

"OctoPrint-Cooldownfan" - cool plugin. With this plugin you could easily control several other things with the Raspi, not only fans 👍 .

Statt zu klagen, dass wir nicht alles haben, was wir wollen, sollten wir lieber dankbar sein, dass wir nicht alles bekommen, was wir verdienen....
Posted : 31/07/2020 3:45 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@karl-herbert

I will have to try this one also.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 01/08/2020 9:15 am
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