Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.  

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@charles-h13

I have a Sovol SV01 with an Ultrabase style bed, I wonder if you have any experience with this? If so, any suggestions.

I use PETG exclusively but would like to try PC, TPU and ASA.

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Posted by: @towlerg

[...] I have a Sovol SV01 with an Ultrabase style bed, I wonder if you have any experience with this? If so, any suggestions.

How do you like the Sovol? I almost went for the SV01 before opting to buy an Artillery Sidewinder X1 for the larger build area. I've read good things about the Sovol and a buddy bought one for his son on my suggestion. 

I use PETG exclusively but would like to try PC, TPU and ASA.

The Sidewinder has an Ultrabase-style bed and I rather like it. I did compile and install Marlin 2 to enable manual mesh bed leveling, but that has worked to deal with the notoriously warped Sidewinder bed problem.

I've had no issues with PETG on it after cleaning the print surface with 99% isopropyl alcohol. Once every couple of weeks I'm applying some of Vision Miner's adhesion booster. I quite like it and it's not quite as messy as MagiGoo since it doesn't flake. As advertised, parts just pop off (PLA & PETG) once fully cooled. It does take a LONG time for a non-removable bed to cool however.

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@bobstro

I guess the biggest downside of the Sovol is the lack of prebuild slicer profiles. I played with few PrusaSlicer profiles from the Sovol Facebook (how I detest Facebook in general plus it's total unsuited for a community forum, I find it impossible to find old posts, even my own) with varying degrees of success. I'm now trying Cura which has a profile for CR10 which I'm told is very similar apart from it has bowden feed.

If I can get the first layer to stick, I'm pretty much golden. At the moment I can't find a source of IPA locally (I live in a very remote rural area) so I'm relying in scouring pad and washing up liquid. I wonder what other solvents would work? Any ideas?

I'm running Marlin bug fix with "level corners" and 9 point manual bed leveling. I think the 9 point is borked, it produces bizarrely large offsets. The level corners function seems to show the center is a little low, so I cheat and set all the points to zero except the center. I suspect part of the problem is the default step size for manual 9 point leveling is 0.025. I don't know if I'm imagining it but I can see the difference in test square surface down to .005

I tried glue stick but maybe I had the wrong stuff 'cause it dried out almost immediately and just made a mess. I bought a roll of Prusament PC which came with a glue stick, so I'll try that but it remains unclear where the glue to to aid adhesion or release.

As you say PETG release is not an issue, I suspect the smaller bed (than the Sidewinder) both heats up and cools down quicker, so I don't have an issue with waiting post print.

One thing that really surprised me was how quiet the SV01 is, to the extent that I wondered if they'd upgraded to main board as well as the hotend but no, still the old Creality 2.2 "noisy board". What noise there is seems to be the steppers singing to me (which I find quite fascinating) and the various fans.

The silicon sock around the nozzel is great and I've only had one clog that was cleared with the acupuncture needle no no time.

All in all I'd say it's a good solid basic machine that is up-gradable but that doesn't have to be. I have a BTT  SKR board (dead cheap and surprisingly quick from China) which I bought before the printer assuming it would be necessary modification but at the moment I don't see any reason to go thro the hassle of swapping it.    

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

I have a CR-10S Pro and Anycubic Predator and Chiron.  I am very happy with them.  No so happy with my Ender.  

I wish we had an update on the XL.  I want to save to buy one.  

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@charles-h13

In principle, you could take the MK3 as a base, equip it with a larger frame (aluminium profiles), longer and stronger axles and rods, a larger printbed, some longer electric cables and adapt the firmware. 400x400x400 would certainly not be a problem.

Just a quick thought but has anyone thought it over or worked it out yet?

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@karl-herbert

Interesting.  I would like to see more on this.  

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Posted by: @towlerg

[...] I guess the biggest downside of the Sovol is the lack of prebuild slicer profiles. I played with few PrusaSlicer profiles from the Sovol Facebook (how I detest Facebook in general plus it's total unsuited for a community forum, I find it impossible to find old posts, even my own) with varying degrees of success.

I've worked up a decent set of profiles for the Sidewinder. I'd be happy to share notes. I'm working on a project notes page but don't have it ready yet. Most important is a good print to compare to. Do you have gcode that does work well that was sliced with another slicer? If you can determine those settings, that will get you halfway there.

Agreed on Facebook. Reddit is also not ideal, though far better than Facebook.

I'm now trying Cura which has a profile for CR10 which I'm told is very similar apart from it has bowden feed.

That's probably a good starting point. Speeds and acceleration settings are the hard ones to figure out. If you have a profile that works well for those, most of the rest of a profile is tweaking and testing.

If I can get the first layer to stick, I'm pretty much golden. At the moment I can't find a source of IPA locally (I live in a very remote rural area) so I'm relying in scouring pad and washing up liquid. I wonder what other solvents would work? Any ideas?

Denatured alcohol is often mentioned. Other degreasers probably work so long as they don't have additives. 

I'm running Marlin bug fix with "level corners" and 9 point manual bed leveling. I think the 9 point is borked, it produces bizarrely large offsets. The level corners function seems to show the center is a little low, so I cheat and set all the points to zero except the center. I suspect part of the problem is the default step size for manual 9 point leveling is 0.025. I don't know if I'm imagining it but I can see the difference in test square surface down to .005

I used 9x9 for testing, but compiled my final firmware with 7x7 mesh bed leveling and changed it to use 0.02mm increments. I use this process:

1. Use 4 corners and adjustment screws to get even nozzle clearance at the corners using a 0.2mm feeler gauge. Exact height doesn't matter, so long as they're consistent. This is more getting the bed perpendicular to the XY plane than a height adjustment.
2. Use 7x7 mesh bed leveling process to get even nozzle clearance at all test points. Again, I use a 0.2mm feeler gauge, but exact height doesn't matter. This is more about getting the nozzle to a consistent height across the bed. Be sure to save results.
3. Finally, I do the equivalent of Jeff Jordan's "Life Adjust" with a 75x75x0.2mm print. This one is the real height adjustment. I'm after a good even print with the nozzle at 0.2mm for my 1st layer height. I enter this as a Z offset in the printer.

This is working quite well, and I'm getting good, consistent adhesion across the entire 300x300 Ultrabase surface. Ideally, step 2 is high enough that the adjustment in step 3 is a negative value so I don't worry about nozzle crashes.

I tried glue stick but maybe I had the wrong stuff 'cause it dried out almost immediately and just made a mess. I bought a roll of Prusament PC which came with a glue stick, so I'll try that but it remains unclear where the glue to to aid adhesion or release.

During the COVID printing push, I used glue stick just to do something quick and move on. I did find at some point it stopped working and I had to de-gunk the bed and start over. That was before I upgraded the firmware and couldn't properly level. The Vision Miner adhesion booster got me through that period once I discovered it. I strongly recommend trying the stuff out.

As you say PETG release is not an issue, I suspect the smaller bed (than the Sidewinder) both heats up and cools down quicker, so I don't have an issue with waiting post print.

That's good. It is a BIG plate. 

One thing that really surprised me was how quiet the SV01 is, to the extent that I wondered if they'd upgraded to main board as well as the hotend but no, still the old Creality 2.2 "noisy board". What noise there is seems to be the steppers singing to me (which I find quite fascinating) and the various fans.

Interesting. Many reviews I've read and watched describe the Sovol SV01 as the upgrade the Creality Ender 3 Pro should have been. Sounds like it's a good balance of features and performance for the price. I like the slightly larger print area the Sovol has.

The silicon sock around the nozzel is great and I've only had one clog that was cleared with the acupuncture needle no no time.

Have you upgraded the hotend to all-metal, or does it ship that way? I like Artillery's Volcano (clone) hotends. They ship PTFE-lined heatbreaks for some stupid reason, so I made a point of upgrading that to all-metal. MUCH easier to get good nozzle seals now.

All in all I'd say it's a good solid basic machine that is up-gradable but that doesn't have to be.

That's a good summary. I was hoping it would be about like that when recommending it to others. Have only heard good things back. The Sovol, just like my Artillery, is no Prusa. Good basic hardware, but support sucks. Artillery QC is really bad, so you're going to be fixing/replacing/upgrading within months in any case.

I have a BTT  SKR board (dead cheap and surprisingly quick from China) which I bought before the printer assuming it would be necessary modification but at the moment I don't see any reason to go thro the hassle of swapping it.    

The Sidewinder uses a MKS Gen_L (I think) and is also pretty quiet. I've looked at upgrading the board and/or stepper drivers, but I think I've found a good middle ground for now. I'm happy it runs Marlin 2 with a full suite of features enabled, and I haven't hit any limits so far.

I'm glad I had the Prusa to learn on. Much easier to figure things out on a working machine, then transfer that experience to the more challenging one.

Thanks for the info!

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Posted by: @charles-h13

I have a CR-10S Pro and Anycubic Predator and Chiron.  I am very happy with them.  No so happy with my Ender.  

I spent a lot of time staring at the Enders but just didn't see the attraction. They seem to need a lot of work on day one.

I wish we had an update on the XL.  I want to save to buy one.  

I was planning on a smaller printer and waiting for the XL when COVID hit. I needed to pull the trigger quick back in March, so went for the bigger Sidewinder for printing PPE. Not sure if I'll be ready or willing to dump it for an XL in 1-2 years, but it doesn't sound like the XL is right around the corner. Meanwhile, I'm kinda bummed I'm not playing with a Mini like all the cool kids.

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@bobstro

The Minis are cool.  I wish I bought 2.  

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Posted by: @charles-h13

[...] The Minis are cool.  I wish I bought 2.  

Every time I read about somebody fitting a Mini with a SuperVolcano hotend and BMG geared extruder, I get a little jealous. 😀 

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@bobstro

Me too.  I really wish someone would invent a quick change hotend system for the Prusa like the once for the CR-10 and Ender-3.  I have too many hotends and not enough printers.  

I have one of these hotends dying to installed.  

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

One more adhesive:

• 3D Printer Adhesive Glue by Layerneer - It is listed as a thermal dynamic coating that works like magic allowing parts to stick at hot and release when cooled.  It dries fast and non tacky once dry.  I get several prints per application till I have to reapply and it comes in a handing applicator.   It comes off with soal and water.  I rate this stuff just a little better than glue sticks and on par with the hair spray.  

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Posted by: @charles-h13

One more adhesive:

• 3D Printer Adhesive Glue by Layerneer - It is listed as a thermal dynamic coating that works like magic allowing parts to stick at hot and release when cooled.  It dries fast and non tacky once dry.  I get several prints per application till I have to reapply and it comes in a handing applicator.   It comes off with soal and water.  I rate this stuff just a little better than glue sticks and on par with the hair spray.  

Ok, I'll bite.  It looks worth trying.  I don't like to use glue, but I'll give this a shot the next time I have one which does not want to stick.

I'm becoming a sucker for things recommended here.  😉

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@bobstro

"Meanwhile, I'm kinda bummed I'm not playing with a Mini like all the cool kids." me too

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@bobstro

"I've worked up a decent set of profiles for the Sidewinder. I'd be happy to share notes." I have a profile from the Facebook (grrrr) group for PETG (I'm using Prusament) on Prusaslicer that seems to work pretty good although oddly it sets the extrusion multiplier to a low value. I like Prusaslicer and if you have profiles that you can share that would be great (hint, hint), as I find Cura although perhaps technically more advanced, it's UI really isn't great. Anyway I'm beginning to think that the rational for using Cura because it has CR10 profiles is unsound due to the different style extruders. Nevertheless I got some great results with the generic PETG (raised temp in line with Prusament PETG on Prusaslicer).

"Have you upgraded the hotend to all-metal, or does it ship that way?"I don't know, there was some talk about an upgraded hot end but nobody seems to know the details or how to identify old from new. I'm not brave enough to take the hotend apart until I absolutely have to.

I found a source of IPA (RadioSpares) so I'll wait till that arrives. I think I may have ruined the Ultrabase with too much scrubbing. I have a couple of other build surfaces on order and see how that works out.

BTW I use essentially the same leveling process as you except I use paper rather than a feeler and lie to the 9 point. When you're looking to set the live Z, what increment do you use? I'm hoping to try something more systematic by printing a bunch of squares each with Z lower by say 0.005mm down to some arbitrary value no lower than 0 (my setting method always leaves Z =0 not touching). Obviously each layer thickness will require a different script. As I'll probably on use a 0.4 nozzle and couple of profiles that should be doable. Unfortunately GCODE is yet another hurdle I have not jumped.

I use PETG and hope to add ASA, PC and Flexfill 98. I suspect the PC will require both bed and nozzle high that my mach can handle.

I see that Sovol are now selling the SV-01 with the silent board for only $45 extra.

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

I can't edit the above

"I don't know, there was some talk about an upgraded hot end" should have been   .... "I'm using the as-delivered hotend but there was some talk about an upgraded stock hotend.

"...... require both bed and nozzle high that my mach can handle." should have been   .... require both bed and nozzle temperatures higher than my machine can handle.

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

On another forum, someone asked me about Magigoo.  

Magigoo is an all-in-one 3D printing adhesive which makes it easy to adhere and release parts from a heated build plate of an FDM 3D printer.  Prodiced by Thought3D, Magigoo is a group of products that work similar to the other adhesives.  The original formula for Magigoo works with commonly 3D printed plastics such as PLA, ABS, HIPS, PETG, TPU. It is sold in over 25 countries as an alternative to glue sticks, sheets, and sprays.  I have never tried the sprays.  

Formulations available:

• Magigoo All-in-One
• Magigoo Pro PC (Polycarbonate)
• Maggoo Pro PA (Nylon)
• Magigoo Pro PP (Polypropylene)
• Magigoo Pro Flex

I have not tried to flex but the rest are awesome.  I would recommend starting with the All-in-One and see how it works for you.  They have a few more products that are mroe specialized.  I may write about them as I try them.  

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Hello to all,

alternative to the adhesives, hairsprays etc.
Has anyone already applied printing plate coatings such as Pertinax, GFK, CFK, Polyimid, Nylon with suitable adhesive materials to the spring steel plate? If so, which materials and glue did you use and where did you buy it?

I have the following products in mind:

adhesive tape:

https://www.amazon.com/-/de/Gizmo-Dorks-Adhesive-Transfer-Sheets/dp/B01HP2CEG8/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=3m+468&qid=1595690990&sr=8-2

coating materials:

https://www.muellerbestellung.de/3D-Druck-Dauerdruckplatten-und-Folien

https://www.masterplatex.de/epages/62236671.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62236671/Categories/%22Glashartgewebe%2C%20GFK%22

Does anyone have any other ideas and experiences with self-made printing plates?

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

Does anyone have any other ideas and experiences with self-made printing plates?

I am not aware of anyone making their own printing plates.  Are you making them and do they work better than the stock plates or the third-party (KKiinngg and such) plates?

This topic also reminds me of a local conversation a few weeks ago.  When our local 'makerspace' recently reopened, they rolled out a Makerbot Replicator Plus, and touted the fact that it has a 'grip surface' for first-time every-time perfect first layer adhesion.  I googled a bit and could not find out anything specific about this surface other than the fact that it does need replacement every so many prints.

Does anyone know the 'secret' to this plate or coating?

Other than that, the new printer does not really excite me, but it's really intended for the nontechie as they claim that it's almost foolproof (student-proof?) 🙂 in operation.  It's PLA only, no heated bed, and uses a proprietary filament that's about twice as expensive as generic.  It does have a slightly larger bed than the I3.

RE: Let's Talk Bed Adhesion.

@karl-herbert

No knowledge of self mage plates.  I am interested in more on these surfaces you posted above.