Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus
 
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PrusaPrinters profile
(@prusaprinters-profile)
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RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

How about People who died in the years before on Influenca?

Posted : 18/12/2020 4:18 pm
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

Nah, the mask is not about stopping the spread of the virus, it cannot do such a thing unless the mask is of a certain grade or higher and is fitted to the individual, which the masks almost everyone is wearing are not.  It simply cannot stop the spread, it is not possible.  It merely slows it.  Having children wear them is just effective as having adults wear them, meaning it cannot stop the spread.

All But Immune does not mean Completely Immune.  Exceedingly low infection rate compared to adults is what All But Immune does.  So much so, that it literally reduces the chances adults can get the virus when kids are around.  62% of kids have antibodies for the coronavirus despite never having been exposed to the virus.  The links to the studies and reports are below.  It shows there is still so much for us to learn about a coronavirus still.

The key is to apply the new info we have, even if it goes against what we have always thought to be true.  As we learn we were wrong about things, policy should change to reflect this new information.  This is what we SHOULD do, but is not what is actually being done.  Once politics enters the realm of science, all bets on doing the right thing are off.  Politics should not override science, but it always does. I suspect it is due to the complexity of the science and the ease of listening to someone who says what you (generic you, not personal you) want to hear.

"“Children may even act as a brake on infection,” Berner told a news conference, saying infections in schools had not led to an outbreak, while the spread of the virus within households was also less dynamic than previously thought."

German study shows low coronavirus infection rate in schools | Reuters

 

"A new study has shown that six in ten children are immune to COVID-19, despite never being infected by it.

Findings of the study published on GAVI.org, shows that children are far more likely than adults to have antibodies against COVID-19.

This might explain why they are often unaffected by the virus that causes COVID-19 or only have mild illness, the study shows.

By comparison, as many as 62 per cent of uninfected children aged 6 to 16 years had antibodies, the age group in which antibodies to seasonal coronaviruses are most common.

In laboratory tests, they found that pre-existing antibodies also stopped the SARS-CoV-2 virus from entering cells."

Preexisting and de novo humoral immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in humans | Science (sciencemag.org)

Six in ten children are immune to COVID-19 - Study (premiumtimesng.com)

This post was modified 12 months ago by CybrSage
Posted : 18/12/2020 4:34 pm
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus
Posted by: @prusaprinters-profile

How about People who died in the years before on Influenca?

What about them?  They got the flu, they died.  On average, around 600,000 people die a year, worldwide, from the flu.

Posted : 18/12/2020 4:36 pm
PrusaPrinters profile
(@prusaprinters-profile)
Trusted Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

So why does your Gov in the Years before dont care when a lot of old People died on, with a Virus?
Maybe you not know: https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps ? Look for Austria.

Posted : 18/12/2020 4:49 pm
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@prusaprinters-profile

Ask them.

Posted : 18/12/2020 4:57 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cybrsage

It will be lower this year - gauranteed.  

The lesson to be learned is that masks and faceshields work if properly used in the right situations.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 18/12/2020 5:12 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus
Posted by: @cybrsage

[...] Nah, the mask is not about stopping the spread of the virus, it cannot do such a thing unless the mask is of a certain grade or higher and is fitted to the individual, which the masks almost everyone is wearing are not.  It simply cannot stop the spread, it is not possible.  It merely slows it.  Having children wear them is just effective as having adults wear them, meaning it cannot stop the spread.

I never said it could stop the spread, of course. It is ALL ABOUT slowing it. With vaccines and therapeutics just around the corner, slowing it and preventing the overwhelming of our healthcare systems is what it is all about. Wearing a mask stops the spewing of snot and drool over others. It is to limit (not stop) the spread of infection. That is particularly important given the higher rate of infection of COVID.

[...] It shows there is still so much for us to learn about a coronavirus still. 

  • N95 and medical-grade equipment greatly reduces (it's 95, not 100) the odds of the wearer getting infected.
  • A cloth mask reduces (does not eliminate) the spread from infected individuals, including those who may not be aware they are contagious.
  • A face shield helps reduce (but does not eliminate) spittle and snot from getting onto the face and PPE worn underneath.
  • Reduced exposure is the best protection until vaccines use is widespread.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 18/12/2020 5:37 pm
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cwbullet

That depends on what you mean by work.  If you mean "prevents the spread", then they simply do not work.  The science is quite clear, and has been for around a decade.  If you mean "give people something they can do so they stop feeling powerless and slow the spread while clearly not preventing it" then they do work.

Yep, one of the reasons the flu will be lower is because if you die from complications from the flu, but are also positive for covid, you count as a covid death.  Much like dying in a car crash while being positive for covid counts as a covid death - in the US.

Posted : 18/12/2020 6:17 pm
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

Given that most people who get covid never have snot to spew or drool, stopping those items does not amount to much - provided the social distancing is in effect.  Distancing is what actually works well, the masks do very little.

 

Yes, we already know that properly fitted, medical grade masks work for a virus.  We have known that for a very long time.  However, we both know that is not what the majority of people wear.  In fact, almost no one wears them, including those working in the medical field.  All that said, how well or poorly masks work is not something new we have learned, we have known it for around a decade at least.  It is things like 62% children being immune to the virus without every having come into contact with it that we did not know, very recently learned, and which shows we have so much to learn yet.  I thought I was pretty clear about that part, sorry if I was not clear enough.  Yes, we already know a lot about how a virus works in general, and about how a coronavirus works in general.  This specific one is the issue, it is an odd bird.

 

I am a little surprised at how triggered people became from simply being told the truth, supported with scientific studies.  Again, if the truth and science trigger you, take a deeper look at yourself for the issue.  Non-politically controlled science, and the truths it uncovers, are neutral and are unaffected by feelings and fear.

Posted : 18/12/2020 6:25 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus
Posted by: @cybrsage

[...] That depends on what you mean by work.  If you mean "prevents the spread", then they simply do not work.  The science is quite clear, and has been for around a decade.  If you mean "give people something they can do so they stop feeling powerless and slow the spread while clearly not preventing it" then they do work.

Interesting given that the mortality rates are much lower in counties where mask-wearing is a common courtesy. Cloth masks have not been recommended to prevent the spread, but are effective at reducing the spread. Considering that we're at the point where remaining infection-free make make the difference between surviving a few months to get a vaccine or dying needlessly, it seems a reasonable ask. We have no issue asking smokers to step outside. We ask people that are sick to isolate themselves while sick. We even manage to hold farts in. How big a deal is wearing a mask for a few months just in case it helps?

Yep, one of the reasons the flu will be lower is because if you die from complications from the flu, but are also positive for covid, you count as a covid death.  Much like dying in a car crash while being positive for covid counts as a covid death - in the US.

Flu transmission has also been limited by people taking precautions against COVID. Wearing masks also reduces (but does not eliminate) influenza transmission. That's exactly why mask-wearing is so commonplace in other parts of the world. It reduces the spread of many diseases, not just the novel COVID virus. Flu deaths are down something like 10K in 2019-2020 compared to 2018-2019. Of course a 10K reduction of influenza deaths doesn't begin to compare to the 310K (and growing) deaths associated with COVID in the US, even if you completely subtract the "old" value of 32,000 influenza deaths from the COVID total. "Something" is clearly killing a lot more people this year. Even if you add in the "they may have had something else" numbers, the COVID total is much higher and appears to be taking off from there. There seems to be agreement COVID is killing people and causing long-term financial and health hardship.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 18/12/2020 6:31 pm
pcweber liked
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

Interesting that Belgium tops the list of mortality rates and they have mandatory mask wearing both inside (from July onward) and outside (from Dec onward).  The mortality rate in the US as of right now (using close to real time numbers) is 313,319 deaths and 17,156,512 confirmed cases.  That makes a mortality rate of 1.82624%.  Belgium, San Marino, Peru, Italy, Spain, Andorra, North Macedonia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Estonia, the UK, Montenegro, and Argentina all have higher mortality rates than the US.  That goes against what you are saying about mandatory mask wearing, as most of those countries have it.

Also, why would mortality rates be lower if the spread is merely slowed and not prevented?  Over time, the exact same number of people get the virus with and without the mask, and the mortality rate would stay the same.    Seriously, you either get covid19 or you do not.  The mask does not make the virus less deadly when you do get it.  Maybe I am missing something, maybe there is proof a mask makes the disease less deadly when you do end up getting it, but I cannot see how.  Since this is your claim, go ahead and explain it, I would love to learn about that if it is true.  It would make a huge difference in the number of people willing to wear a mask, I am sure.

I already mentioned the over reporting done by the US.  That is a well known issue.  The mortality rate in the US is far higher due to counting deaths from other reasons as covid deaths when the person is found to also be infected by covid when then died.  This is due to increased funding for every death counted as covid.  Like the old saying goes, follow the money.

Also, the mortality rate is plummeting as more testing is done.    It is like suddenly adding 20 cops to a road to look for speeders where there was only 1 for a long time.  The number of speeders did not increase, detection of those speeders increased, they were always there, undetected.  The number of covid cases are not skyrocketing, our detection of them has skyrocketed...they were always there, undetected.  As this detection increases, we are seeing that almost everyone who gets covid barely even knows they are sick (mostly a loss of smell) and therefor never enter a hospital or die.  This causes the mortality rate to plummet due to maths.

 

Yep, flu deaths will be reduced by masks as well as social distancing.  I did not discount that, I offered an "in addition to it" statement using the phrase "in addition to".  That phrase does not mean "all by itself", it means "that and this also".  Thinking there is only one reason is quite foolish.

Yes, the number of infections will keep increasing, that is how a virus (and a coronavirus) works and always has.  This is nothing new.  It will increase until herd immunity is reached, at which point it will quickly drop to a low rate.  That 310,000 number you mention is well known to be too high.  It took public shaming in the US State of PA to get the government there to reduce the official covid deaths.  The coroners who reported the number had to go to the press and say the State was lying to get them to change it.  The US is over stating the number of deaths, this has been known for a long time.  Just like it is known that China is way under reporting their deaths.  A country with close to 2 billion people, where the coronavirus started, has only 4700 deaths and only 94,000 confirmed cases?  Yeah, and the Democratic Republic of North Korea is a democracy...

 

Covid19 is deadly, no one ever claimed it was not.  What we DO know to be true is that the masks work by almost everyone merely slow the spread of the virus, that almost everyone who gets infected have very slight symptoms, and that 62% of children are immune to it (complete with antibodies) without every having been exposed to it.  We know schools are the safest place for kids right now, for covid19 issues, mental health issues, and nutritional issues.  We know face shields only work if you are REALLY close to the person (like a dentist who is working).  We know social distancing is very important, far more important than the ill fitted masks.

Posted : 18/12/2020 7:05 pm
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

I also wanted to say a huge KUDOS TO ALL for not turning this into a hate fest, but rather keeping it as an informational discussion instead.  That is rare these days.  I suspect it is due to the intellect and awesomeness of those who purchased a high quality 3D printer.  A better cut of people, to be sure.  🙂

Posted : 18/12/2020 7:06 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus
Posted by: @cybrsage

[...] Given that most people who get covid never have snot to spew or drool, stopping those items does not amount to much - provided the social distancing is in effect.  Distancing is what actually works well, the masks do very little.

If you're not aware that you have COVID and you talk, sing, yell or breathe, you are definitely spreading spittle. That is essentially how airborne diseases spread. If you touch your face while unknowingly infected, you may be spreading more. Social distancing adds some variable space in order to reduce exposure. Masks reduce the amount of emissions into that space to further reduce exposure of others from one's own spittle. One enhances the effectiveness of the other. Neither prevents transmission of an airborne disease. Both reduce exposing others and when combined are more effective.

Yes, we already know that properly fitted, medical grade masks work for a virus.  We have known that for a very long time.  However, we both know that is not what the majority of people wear. 

I have not seen anybody dispute that. N95 and medical-grade PPE is more effective at protecting the wearer. There's no need to repeat that. Individuals have been asked to avoid purchasing N95s to ensure availability for medical personnel since our supply chain is (still) tight and we want to protect those who are exposed daily.

In fact, almost no one wears them, including those working in the medical field. 

Largely due to lack of availability. Many hospitals had (and still have to I believe) re-use N95 PPE well beyond recommendations simply because it was not available. Of course, this is compounded by increased numbers of patients. The more patients, the more overwhelmed the medical personnel, the less N95 PPE available.

All that said, how well or poorly masks work is not something new we have learned, we have known it for around a decade at least.  It is things like 62% children being immune to the virus without every having come into contact with it that we did not know, very recently learned, and which shows we have so much to learn yet.  

If 62% of children are immune and we agree that roughly 24% of the US population of 328 million are "children under 18", that means that over 50 million children are not immune and therefore susceptible themselves, and possibly carriers. That's something like 6% of our population just from one demographic. Given that infection may not be immediately apparent, these 50M kids could be carrying the infection home, to little league, and to church while highly contagious. Yes, we have a lot to learn. Why not be more cautious knowing that rather than less? We may not know exactly what kills a cancer patient, but it's pretty well-accepted smoking is a factor, so we reduce smoking. We may not know exactly what kills a car wreck victim, but it's pretty well-accepted that seat belts reduce fatalities, so we require seatbelts as part of responsible driving.

I thought I was pretty clear about that part, sorry if I was not clear enough.  Yes, we already know a lot about how a virus works in general, and about how a coronavirus works in general.  This specific one is the issue, it is an odd bird.

One that, unfortunately, keeps making people sick and killing them. The numbers have continued to climb while we try to figure out the details. Perhaps I was unclear myself. Apologies.

I am a little surprised at how triggered people became from simply being told the truth, supported with scientific studies.  Again, if the truth and science trigger you, take a deeper look at yourself for the issue.  Non-politically controlled science, and the truths it uncovers, are neutral and are unaffected by feelings and fear.

I wonder about this myself. I'm accepting your numbers and using your sources with your math. The numbers are still alarming. What's the question? I'm not scared of COVID. I'm just taking precautions to reduce my exposure, and exposing others in case I am unknowingly infected. It's a common courtesy and common sense.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 18/12/2020 7:07 pm
pcweber and CybrSage liked
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

OOps, the page did not have the mortality rates sorted properly, the list of those countries with a higher mortality rate than the US is different.  I cannot change the other entry, so I will post it here instead.  I highlighted the richer nations with good healthcare systems (I could have missed some highlights, apologies to those in nations I do not know much about).  The list in in order of mortality rate from highest to lowest and is current as of of Dec 13, 2020.

Yemen, Mexico, Ecuador, Sudan, Bolivia, Chad, Egypt, Syria, Liberia, China, Iran, Afghanistan, Tanzania, Peru, Niger, Italy, United Kingdom, Tunisia, Guatemala, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Gambia, Mali, Australia, Bulgaria, Malawi, Sierra Leone, Indonesia, Belgium, North Macedonia, Canada, Greece, El Salvador, Spain, Chile, Ireland, Algeria, Nicaragua, Argentina, Colombia, South Africa, Antigua and Barbuda, Zimbabwe, San Marino, Brazil, Kosovo, Honduras, Guyana, Somalia, Hungary, Congo, Haiti, Vietnam, France, Romania, Barbados, Sweden, Jamaica, Angola, Iraq, Suriname, Slovenia, Belize, Bahamas, Albania, Paraguay, Mauritania, Myanmar, Moldova, Poland, Pakistan, Senegal, Zambia, Lesotho, Togo, and Brunei.  Then the US is next.

Posted : 18/12/2020 7:17 pm
CybrSage
(@cybrsage)
Honorable Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@bobstro

There are studies that show kids do not pass covid to adults.  According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, children are not a driver for spreading the disease.  They surmise this is because when they do get it, it is almost exclusively so mild that they barely ever cough from it, so they almost never spread it.  This makes it very unlike the flu (which is not a standard virus, not a coronavirus).  They are not a worry for adults getting covid.  It is more the big box stores, grocery stores, and protests, where people are so very close to each other that is the issue. 

COVID-19 Transmission and Children: The Child Is Not to Blame | American Academy of Pediatrics (aappublications.org)

The grocery store is very problematic, as we cannot realistically do without them.  When you shop, you touch an item touched by a few dozen people and put it in your cart.  You then hand this item to a person who has touched the items of several hundred people.  This person (operating the register) touches your item and puts it in a bad for you to take home.  When you get home, you touch the item and put it away.  Your infection chances from grocery shopping dwarf most other routes of infection.

I am not against mask wearing, when it makes sense.  I wear one, except when doing heavy exertion or outside in the air.  My glasses fog up and being unable to see while walking about is far more deadly than the possibility I will get covid and die.  But I practice social distancing, so all is good there too.  I follow the "if it does not really impact my life, then why not do it voluntarily" attitude.  Sounds like you do too.  I am appauled at those who verbally (and sometimes physically) attack those without a mask.  Just stay at least 6 feet from that person and go on with your life.

I have a condition, due to a spinal injury, where I am constantly slowly drowning.  My cilia do not move fast enough to remove all the liquid from my lungs, which makes me clear my throat regularly.  Wearing a mask increases the moisture in the air I breath quite significantly, causing me some issue.  For short term durations, no big deal.  If I had to wear one for an hour or two I would be removing it to hack up liquid every 15 mins or so...which is not something people want to be around.  There are many with worse conditions, including mental ones, who simply cannot wear a mask.  They should not be shamed or attacked for it.

 

Yes, the numbers are quite alarming.  That is why I wear a mask, with the knowledge of how little it really helps.  But it makes people feel safer, and that is very important too.

This post was modified 12 months ago by CybrSage
Posted : 18/12/2020 7:30 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus
Posted by: @cybrsage

OOps, the page did not have the mortality rates sorted properly, the list of those countries with a higher mortality rate than the US is different.  I cannot change the other entry, so I will post it here instead.  I highlighted the richer nations with good healthcare systems (I could have missed some highlights, apologies to those in nations I do not know much about).  The list in in order of mortality rate from highest to lowest and is current as of of Dec 13, 2020.

I reference the Johns Hopkins University data. Depending what statistic you prefer look at:

  • The US is rated 90th in case mortality at 1.8%. 89 countries have better case mortality rates.
  • The US is rated 192nd in cases per 100,000 at 94.97. 161 countries have fewer cases per 100K population.

Looking at it another way, if you assume that deaths attributed to COVID are actually misdiagnosed and are actually attributable to influenza and pneumonia (35,672), diabetes (83,564), or suicide (47,173) [2017 numbers, so not tainted by COVID numbers], that still leaves 144,591 deaths attributed to COVID to date, and the number continues to grow. Hell, you can throw Alzheimer's in there and still have ~20,000 left over. That number is more than 4 of the bottom 5 of the top 10 leading causes of death in the US combined.

How many preventable deaths are worth fighting? If you could reduce (not eliminate) the number of deaths of fellow citizens from influenza and pneumonia, diabeter and suicide by wearing a mask for a few months, what would be the objection?

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 18/12/2020 7:34 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cybrsage

Masks and shield have reduce the Influenza and COVID rates.  You can’t deny it.  17 positive test out of 80K.  Last year 8-10% were positive.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 18/12/2020 7:37 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

@cybrsage

The statement “kids do not pass the virus to adults” is misleading.  The correct statement is that they are not the primary source of infections and are a less likely source.  “Do not” would men zero infections.  I have plent of positibe clusters to prove it.  Just so you know, I am one of the planners for the Southern USA.  I am the one that oversaw the ramp up testing and treatment.    

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog...
Posted : 18/12/2020 7:41 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus

Just in case anybody is worried that COVID numbers are misdiagnosed cases of the bottom 5 of the top 5 US causes of death:

  • Alzheimer's
  • Diabetes
  • Influenza & pneumonia
  • Nephritis
  • Suicide

Those combined come to 365,815. With COVID deaths currently at nearly 311,000 and counting, COVID will exceed the combined death total of these causes in approximately 18 days if the current rate of ~3,000 deaths per day continues. Unless we're willing to believe that deaths attributed to COVID are actually mis-diagnosed stroke victims, it's pretty clear that "something" is killing a lot of people that hasn't been a factor previously. While "the science may still be out", being proactive is a good thing.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 18/12/2020 7:49 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: Which Mask is Better to Protect Covid-19 Virus
Posted by: @cwbullet

[...]  I am the one that oversaw the ramp up testing and treatment.    

Hell, I just look at the numbers and do basic math and I'm agreeing with you!

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan...
Posted : 18/12/2020 7:50 pm
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